Stupid Jeremie?

[Skorpigeist offline]

Hmm.....If he actually asked her out. I'd love that. (It's my personnel dream 83)

Makes you wonder what he is waiting for doesn't it? I mean it is not like she would say no.

I don't think he's quite got a handle on the concept of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, doesn't understand there's maintenance involved. Everything's okay, why should he have to work at it? Even their first "date" (in False Start) was more about showing Aelita around reality.

He figures that they're fundamentally the same: Capable of hyperfocusing, prone to ignore the need for sleep, drawing enjoyment from working at solving a complex problem. While that was perhaps true when they met (Aelita didn't have anything to do but work on the devirtualization program, didn't need to sleep, and had no access to entertainment), now that she's had a chance to take a flesh-and-blood body for a test drive, she's growing and changing emotionally and intellectually. She's no longer the girl who was quite literally at his beck and call, but he hasn't noticed yet. (He does have a habit of missing the obvious.)

I've probably said this before, but anyway.... As much as I loathe psychology-speak: She has a sensate and extroverted personality, and is starting to chafe against Jeremie's intuitive and introverted self. Aelita showed signs of that even while on Lyoko. How many times was she shown roaming around Lyoko when there was no obvious reason to be, like at the start of an episode? She'd presumably be safer in a tower, but I guess she liked to get out for a walk even then. If Jeremie were the AI trapped on Lyoko, he'd probably have spent all his time latched onto the interface in the tower.

Doesn't help that he has no real role models should he attempt to be more date-friendly. Yumi and Ulrich are hopeless on that front, and Odd probably plans his dates based on where his other girlfriends aren't going to be. His only real hope is Aelita herself, and a few magic words: "What do you want to do today?" Maybe we should stage an intervention for him, or something.

Wow, you have quite the handle on the characters and I think that all of your points are very interesting. I would agree with you that in the begining that Aelita is indeed at Jeremie's beck and call. He is basically her savior. He is mostly the reason ( or at least appears to be) that Xana hasn't been shut off before. Not that the other members don't love Aelita, but they have gone through so much strain I think for Jeremie's sake. Losing Aelita would probably break him. And as has been shown, he doesn't have what many would consider much of a life. He dropped everything for Aelita. He sacrificed his time and efforts to save her and his motivation was that they could be together. Of course we never hear his interior monolouges, but I imagine he has a greater grip on the situation than is shown. he does love her, and she loves him. Opposites attract, and even though Aelita is more extrovert, and Jeremie more Introvert, they can tell each other anything. But they are also teens and with that comes the drama like in Xana's Kiss. I would point to aelita's actions during False Start and Xana's Kiss as her great love for Jeremie. I would also say that aelita is jeremie's weak point, but he tries to compensate for this weakness by concentrating on the xana problem. That is jeremie's concern and his sacrifice. Plus he is a problem solver. I feel that the love that they share is agape ( I don't think I spelled that right). but that type of love is unconditional. the two are always there for each other and love each other no matter what. I think they could do the whole dating thing, because they are more expressive about thier feelings toward each other than Yumi and Ulrich.

And Mewberries, I agree that telling someone you like, much less that you are in love with them is very hard.

as an off topic to end this post, I am curious what each of the characters internal monolouges would be. by having those revealed we could learn so much more about each of the characters. but then again, it is the guessing and thinking about the situation that makes it fun

[animenologist offline]

Even their first "date" (in False Start) was more about showing Aelita around reality.

Good point...plus, honestly, it's not like it's easy to just come out and tell a person you love them. That's a big emotional leap to take.

I wouldn't suggest he do that. Quite the opposite: I don't think they've been together long enough to warrant a step that big. Starting with "really like" is highly recommeneded.

They've been in each others company for about 2 years. I've seen people declare marriage before then. By the way they've handled their relationship thus far, they've passed "really like" a long time ago. They definately seem to enjoy each other's company greatly that even though Aelita has change quite a bit in her personality, they always enjoy being with each other. Is it really necessary for there to be a verbal confirmation of their relationship?

Also, there's the fact that the fight against XANA is still going on...having a relationship might be complicating and even endangering in Jeremie's logical viewpoint. If XANA wanted to hit him hard, emotionally, while also disable the group's main advantage in a fight against him...who would be the best target? It's not Odd, that's for sure...(no offense, Odd). ^^;

Very true. In a sense, they're coworkers. Fighting XANA is a job: Something they have to do, like it or not, even if they're having problems. And relationships with coworkers are a minefield.

I wonder if thats the view a 12 (13) year old would have, even if its from a genius like Jeremie.

Though really, to cripple the effectiveness of the gang, XANA has 2 good targets, not just one. Taking out Aelita gets rid of the only one who can deactivate the towers. Getting rid of Jeremie, would eliminate any chance of new resources, a electronic counter attack should XANA try and manipulate the console again, and the chance of finding whatever solution they need for the season. Getting rid of either one also damages the other main target emotionally.

But than again, that really is kind of a moot point isn't it. XANA already knows of the feelings and the relationship Jeremie and Aelita have for each other, as XANA's Kiss has shown. Why bother hiding a relationship when the one you're hiding it from already knows. Only thing they really can do is make sure it doesn't get in the way of their duties, which I think they've done quite well.

If Jeremie were the AI trapped on Lyoko, he'd probably have spent all his time latched onto the interface in the tower.

Another good point, although to be fair, Jeremie will go out and get some fresh air of his own accord at times. He's done that a few times in various episodes, I believe.

I can't cite any specific episode offhand, but, yeah, I'm sure he has.

Off the top of my head, he's played chess against Ulrich (Why did Ulrich agree to that?), watched a game of table tennis between Odd and Ulrich, refereed the floor sliding competition between Odd and Ulrich (wondering how Odd beat the record after he fell), as well as not skipping breakfast so he can give Aelita her croissant in person.

In the 2 years they've been together, they've actually been pretty open to each other, atleast better than Ulrich and Yumi have been to date. They have kissed (well Aelita kissed Jeremie) 3 times (4 if you count St. Valentines Day) and are in constant company of each other. Maybe thats just enough for them. They fight from time to time since Aelita has been to Earth, but thats just an extension of any relationship that Jeremie and Aelita believed would happen and probably expected to happen since Season 1, but their fights have been relatively benign and quick to conclusion. They balance each other very well, reinforcing their good points while keeping in check the weaknesses. Maybe to have each other by their side and in support of each other is the only confirmation Jeremie and Aelita really desire, atleast at this point in their lives.

Though my views may be horribly skewed since my social life is really static and unimpressive, and I've been jaded with too many harem romance drama animes that sicken me to my very essence.

[Skorpigeist offline]

well put animeologist.

[Mewberries151]

"I fight for you every day, Aelita! Against XANA!"

I'd quote Odd, but that line speaks for itself.

His only real hope is Aelita herself, and a few magic words: "What do you want to do today?" Maybe we should stage an intervention for him, or something.

ROFL!! That is just way too true! He can't even go to his parents for advice either, since Aelita's identity crisis is still a threat; it would probably be a bad idea to mention her to them. ^^;

"Yeah, I met this girl, and she's really nice. Her name is Aelita St... uhh... H... uhh... something. Um, her parents? Well, she doesn't really have any. No! It's not like that! She has a dad, but he's... um... out of reach. No, he's not in prison! Well, not a real one, anyway.... What do you mean, you don't want me hanging around with her anymore?"

LOL! Precisely! That's exactly the problem he'd run into...not to mention there's always the danger of the "parental ring". Jeremie's parents phone Odd's parents about how "cute it is to here that their son has a crush on Odd's cousin at Kadic". "Cousin...wha?" ^^; That would also not lead to a very productive outcome.

Even their first "date" (in False Start) was more about showing Aelita around reality.

Good point...plus, honestly, it's not like it's easy to just come out and tell a person you love them. That's a big emotional leap to take.

I wouldn't suggest he do that. Quite the opposite: I don't think they've been together long enough to warrant a step that big. Starting with "really like" is highly recommeneded.

They've been in each others company for about 2 years. I've seen people declare marriage before then. By the way they've handled their relationship thus far, they've passed "really like" a long time ago. They definately seem to enjoy each other's company greatly that even though Aelita has change quite a bit in her personality, they always enjoy being with each other. Is it really necessary for there to be a verbal confirmation of their relationship?

An excellent point. Jeremie and Aelita seem to already inwardly know that they care for each other with all of their hearts. A verbal confirmation isn't needed necessarily in such a case of understanding, although, I could take a wild guess that Aelita might like one all the same, as she does seem to have a "hopeless romantic" moment from time to time (ie, the "Would you fight for me, Jeremie?" line).

To side-track to Ulrich and Yumi's relationship, a verbal confirmation wouldn't really be needed in their case either (*ducks tomatoes from Y/U fans*), for the simple reason that they share a similar understanding that they care for each other. Plus, Ulrich's confession of "I need you" in "Cold War" honestly, would have sufficed enough for me, had Yumi only heard it (although there is a snowball's chance that she might have). "I need you", to me, anyway, is just as powerful, if not more so, an admission as "I love you", if one takes in the connotations behind it. Needing someone in your life in order to live or even be happy, is a pretty serious thing. But I digress...

If Jeremie were the AI trapped on Lyoko, he'd probably have spent all his time latched onto the interface in the tower.

Another good point, although to be fair, Jeremie will go out and get some fresh air of his own accord at times. He's done that a few times in various episodes, I believe.

I can't cite any specific episode offhand, but, yeah, I'm sure he has.

Off the top of my head, he's played chess against Ulrich (Why did Ulrich agree to that?), watched a game of table tennis between Odd and Ulrich, refereed the floor sliding competition between Odd and Ulrich (wondering how Odd beat the record after he fell), as well as not skipping breakfast so he can give Aelita her croissant in person.

Those were the ones I was thinking of as well. I believe in one season 1 episode ("Girl of the Dreams", perhaps?), Jeremie even tells Aelita that he's going to go out and stretch his legs. Plus, in "The Robots", Jeremie enters in a "Robot Competition", which, while still related to "technology", at least has him away from his computer screen. Plus, Jeremie has been lured out of his room and away from his computer by the allure of his favorite dish..."brussel sprouts".

[Reesane offline]

Hmm.... * Little tought bubble pops up, showing jermy in a gient humane cat trap eating a plate of brussel sprouts.*

XANA: I have you now!

[FormicaArchonis offline]

Wow, you have quite the handle on the characters and I think that all of your points are very interesting.

Thank you.

I would agree with you that in the begining that Aelita is indeed at Jeremie's beck and call. He is basically her savior. He is mostly the reason ( or at least appears to be) that Xana hasn't been shut off before. Not that the other members don't love Aelita, but they have gone through so much strain I think for Jeremie's sake. Losing Aelita would probably break him.

I don't think the others would be quite that callous. Having met Aelita and spoken to her, could any of the others willingly kill her by deactivating the computer? Kids can be casually sociopathic at times, but they tend to grow out of most of it by their teens. Both Yumi and Ulrich have had XANA put their families in danger. I think if anything could convince either of them to pull the plug, Jeremie or no, it'd be that.

And as has been shown, he doesn't have what many would consider much of a life. He dropped everything for Aelita. He sacrificed his time and efforts to save her and his motivation was that they could be together. Of course we never hear his interior monolouges, but I imagine he has a greater grip on the situation than is shown. he does love her, and she loves him.

That may well be, but, in keeping with the title of the thread, he's not that bright at times. He sees the abstract (like designing an anti-virus program to help Aelita), but not the concrete (that his single-mindedness is worrying her). He's not noticing that he risks ruining her life in his attempts to save it. Temptation dealt with that issue. His lack of foresight and empathy are his biggest flaws.

I would point to aelita's actions during False Start and Xana's Kiss as her great love for Jeremie. I would also say that aelita is jeremie's weak point, but he tries to compensate for this weakness by concentrating on the xana problem.

Yep, but it's overcompensation, which is as bad as neglecting to compensate at all. Flashes of inspiration and the occasional all-nighter aside, he shouldn't be dictating a work schedule to her, he should be letting her set the pace. Since she presumably needs to be around for some of it, he's unwittingly forcing Aelita to adapt her schedule to his.

as an off topic to end this post, I am curious what each of the characters internal monolouges would be. by having those revealed we could learn so much more about each of the characters. but then again, it is the guessing and thinking about the situation that makes it fun

The books apparently get a bit more into that than the series did. Not a lot, I wouldn't think, but some.

They've been in each others company for about 2 years. I've seen people declare marriage before then.

Yeah, but they're a touch young for that sort of thing. And for every person who marries their high school sweetheart, there's plenty who don't. They're at an age where the highs are all higher and the lows are all life-ending abysms. Not saying they wouldn't do it, mind, but it's not necessarily the best course of action to take right away. But what can I say? I'm a cynic.

In a sense, they're coworkers. Fighting XANA is a job: Something they have to do, like it or not, even if they're having problems. And relationships with coworkers are a minefield.

I wonder if thats the view a 12 (13) year old would have, even if its from a genius like Jeremie.

I don't think they would. Especially not Jeremie, who, as I keep getting back to, isn't quick on the uptake when it comes to personal relationships. (To be honest, I'd expect one of the girls to make the connection before any of the boys would.) But the scenario is the same, if they see it or not. They're in a situation where they have a definite responsibility and need to work with certain other people. A personal relationship (loving or hateful) with another group member risks damaging their work. Ulrich almost seriously messed things up on Lyoko after Sissi forged that note from Yumi.

But than again, that really is kind of a moot point isn't it. XANA already knows of the feelings and the relationship Jeremie and Aelita have for each other, as XANA's Kiss has shown.

Knows of it, but he's got a hard time understanding it - look at how he blew his cover in XANA's Kiss. While it's easier to destroy than create, once the kids get wise to his crude manipulations, he'll have to become more sophisticated. Of course, these kids don't have a great track record for getting wise to relationship stuff. :/

Another good point, although to be fair, Jeremie will go out and get some fresh air of his own accord at times. He's done that a few times in various episodes, I believe.

I can't cite any specific episode offhand, but, yeah, I'm sure he has.

Off the top of my head, he's played chess against Ulrich (Why did Ulrich agree to that?), watched a game of table tennis between Odd and Ulrich, refereed the floor sliding competition between Odd and Ulrich (wondering how Odd beat the record after he fell), as well as not skipping breakfast so he can give Aelita her croissant in person.

You win. Why would Ulrich play chess with Jeremie? Something to do. And if you want peace and quiet, you're not going to get it playing a game with Odd.

They fight from time to time since Aelita has been to Earth, but thats just an extension of any relationship that Jeremie and Aelita believed would happen and probably expected to happen since Season 1, but their fights have been relatively benign and quick to conclusion.

Funny, I thought Jeremie dodged those kind of questions whenever Aelita brought them up.

Though my views may be horribly skewed since my social life is really static and unimpressive, and I've been jaded with too many harem romance drama animes that sicken me to my very essence.

Mine's no better. That's why we sit around and talk about it so much.

[Skorpigeist offline]

When talking about Tempation or any episode in season two that involves a Jeremie experiment. Jeremie does these things hoping to find a solution to the gangs problems. I think in a lot of ways, it is not that Jeremie is not empathatic, he just tends to take the role of saving the world more seriously. I mean there is a lot at stake here if Xana manages to get the upper hand. Jeremie realizes this and he is the only one who knows the most about the supercomputer so he has to continually make plans, try programs, and literally not take a break. there are many nights he stays up to no end trying to find an answer. I am amazed he hasn't snapped more than he already has. I still think that there is a lot more there and Jeremie is not callous or unempathic, but stressed and doing what he considers the most important job. I am sure he and aelita can put things back on the right track, and I think also Jeremie realizes that he worries Aelita, but he is solving the problem the only way he knows how. I think that the connection there is what keeps them together, because Jeremie also worries about Aelita as much as she does him. I guess we will just have to wait until season three to get a better understanding.

[animenologist offline]

I would agree with you that in the begining that Aelita is indeed at Jeremie's beck and call. He is basically her savior. He is mostly the reason ( or at least appears to be) that Xana hasn't been shut off before. Not that the other members don't love Aelita, but they have gone through so much strain I think for Jeremie's sake. Losing Aelita would probably break him.

I don't think the others would be quite that callous. Having met Aelita and spoken to her, could any of the others willingly kill her by deactivating the computer? Kids can be casually sociopathic at times, but they tend to grow out of most of it by their teens. Both Yumi and Ulrich have had XANA put their families in danger. I think if anything could convince either of them to pull the plug, Jeremie or no, it'd be that.

But at the same time, Ulrich and Yumi are more accomadating to Aelita's martyr complex. A lot of times, Aelita likes to place herself behind the lives of others, and in many cases, Ulrich and Yumi are most willing to allow her to do so. Take Missing Link for example. Though the gesture was kindly and a great show of friendship, it was quite rash as well. It was created fairly quickly, but not allowed for any chance of discussion of the downfalls or any chance of a viable alternative, of which Yumi allowed to continue.

And as has been shown, he doesn't have what many would consider much of a life. He dropped everything for Aelita. He sacrificed his time and efforts to save her and his motivation was that they could be together. Of course we never hear his interior monolouges, but I imagine he has a greater grip on the situation than is shown. he does love her, and she loves him.

That may well be, but, in keeping with the title of the thread, he's not that bright at times. He sees the abstract (like designing an anti-virus program to help Aelita), but not the concrete (that his single-mindedness is worrying her). He's not noticing that he risks ruining her life in his attempts to save it. Temptation dealt with that issue. His lack of foresight and empathy are his biggest flaws.

This probably goes back to Jeremie being selfish for somebody else. He basically sees the solution to all their troubles is to find the anti-virus for Aelita. No more worries about her risking her life and living in constant danger or fear. He placed himself in danger, just so she wouldn't have to. He's trading in his well-being for Aelita's. Probably in his mind, aslong as Aelita can live safely, that's all that truly matters in the end. If you think about it, Aelita and Jeremie have that as a similarity. Jeremie would give up his safety for her, just like how Aelita gives up her safety for others.

I would point to aelita's actions during False Start and Xana's Kiss as her great love for Jeremie. I would also say that aelita is jeremie's weak point, but he tries to compensate for this weakness by concentrating on the xana problem.

Yep, but it's overcompensation, which is as bad as neglecting to compensate at all. Flashes of inspiration and the occasional all-nighter aside, he shouldn't be dictating a work schedule to her, he should be letting her set the pace. Since she presumably needs to be around for some of it, he's unwittingly forcing Aelita to adapt her schedule to his.

I'm pretty sure a lot of the work is done solo by Jeremie. Aelita helps when she can, but his work schedule does not dictate hers. Take Marabounta for example, even though Jeremie was wanting finish and show off his new creation, he didn't force any of the gang to come and help him when he started it up. Or A Fine Mess, while Jeremie was working through the night with Aelita to help him, she fell asleep while Jeremie continued onward. By the looks of it, he didn't even notice she went to sleep, probably being to used to working solo. And Temptation probably wouldn't have happened if Aelita was constantly and actively working alongside Jeremie.

They've been in each others company for about 2 years. I've seen people declare marriage before then.

Yeah, but they're a touch young for that sort of thing. And for every person who marries their high school sweetheart, there's plenty who don't. They're at an age where the highs are all higher and the lows are all life-ending abysms. Not saying they wouldn't do it, mind, but it's not necessarily the best course of action to take right away. But what can I say? I'm a cynic.

I basically made that statement, saying that its not to soon to make a big leap to come out and say "I love you". Marriage is way too soon, but you're never too young to love (Can't remember where I've heard that phrase before).

But than again, that really is kind of a moot point isn't it. XANA already knows of the feelings and the relationship Jeremie and Aelita have for each other, as XANA's Kiss has shown.

Knows of it, but he's got a hard time understanding it - look at how he blew his cover in XANA's Kiss. While it's easier to destroy than create, once the kids get wise to his crude manipulations, he'll have to become more sophisticated. Of course, these kids don't have a great track record for getting wise to relationship stuff. :/

But knowing of their relationship gives XANA a psychological edge. Affecting one, will affect the other and he understands it well enough to use it to his advantage. But what I was trying to get at was having to hide their feelings to one another because XANA might use it against them is unnecessary since XANA already knows.

To side-track to Ulrich and Yumi's relationship, a verbal confirmation wouldn't really be needed in their case either (*ducks tomatoes from Y/U fans*), for the simple reason that they share a similar understanding that they care for each other. Plus, Ulrich's confession of "I need you" in "Cold War" honestly, would have sufficed enough for me, had Yumi only heard it (although there is a snowball's chance that she might have). "I need you", to me, anyway, is just as powerful, if not more so, an admission as "I love you", if one takes in the connotations behind it. Needing someone in your life in order to live or even be happy, is a pretty serious thing. But I digress...

Still a verbal confirmation that both of them hear and acknowledge would stop all the insecurities they've been having about their relationship. Though Ulrich saying "I need you" in Cold War reinforces the audience's views, it does nothing for the relationship itself. What William said in Marabounta has some truth to it. If Ulrich doesn't say something soon, he will lose Yumi, because as it stands, their relationship is built on a fairly shakey foundation.

I would like to end it with this. If you look at it from Jeremie's pov, its not that hard to understand him or what he's getting at. What is their mission? To stop XANA? Not entirely. Their mission is to stop XANA while at the same time ensuring Aelita's safety. The gang probably sees some inherent worth in her that is worth protecting, despite the great risks. If all there was to the mission was to the stop XANA, it could be done at the simple flip of a switch. In Jeremie's mind, she is worth doing everything possible to save her. Probably would explain his overprotectiveness. If she was just going to hand herself over to XANA and so willingly meet her demise, what exactly is the point of the mission for the past 2 seasons? Her survival is everything he's fighting for, to have her die means the loss of someone special to him and as well as failing the mission.

[Skorpigeist offline]

*claps and tips hat* well done animeologist. It is all of the points both you and FormicaArchonis are looking at that Jeremie is my favorite character. I would agree that he is not that hard to get if you look solely from his POV. I also agree about the Ulrich Yumi relationship. I think they have more to worry about than Aelita and Jeremie because thier relationship foundation is not as strong.

To end this post good job guy

[Mewberries151]

I would agree with you that in the begining that Aelita is indeed at Jeremie's beck and call. He is basically her savior. He is mostly the reason ( or at least appears to be) that Xana hasn't been shut off before. Not that the other members don't love Aelita, but they have gone through so much strain I think for Jeremie's sake. Losing Aelita would probably break him.

I don't think the others would be quite that callous. Having met Aelita and spoken to her, could any of the others willingly kill her by deactivating the computer? Kids can be casually sociopathic at times, but they tend to grow out of most of it by their teens. Both Yumi and Ulrich have had XANA put their families in danger. I think if anything could convince either of them to pull the plug, Jeremie or no, it'd be that.

But at the same time, Ulrich and Yumi are more accomadating to Aelita's martyr complex. A lot of times, Aelita likes to place herself behind the lives of others, and in many cases, Ulrich and Yumi are most willing to allow her to do so. Take Missing Link for example. Though the gesture was kindly and a great show of friendship, it was quite rash as well. It was created fairly quickly, but not allowed for any chance of discussion of the downfalls or any chance of a viable alternative, of which Yumi allowed to continue.

I think it's important to note though that in "Missing Link", Yumi was about as "shaken" as she tends to get. I think the thought of being trapped in Lyoko, thereby making her unable to see her family ever again (while subsequently endangering the group's secret because of her "disappearance" from the real world), was taking a toll in her emotions and usual use of rational thought.

Yumi desperately wanted to get out (she's not used to handling what Aelita has been dealing with for the greater part of her life), and Aelita's offer, I believe, was one of those times when she felt she shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. And neither of them knew what the consequences would be.

I don't think "Missing Link" is the best example for the idea that Yumi and Ulrich are more accepting of Aelita's martyr complex than the others. A better example might be "Just In Time", where neither (though they may have been able to do something) in fact, did nothing to sway her opinion otherwise about sacrificing herself (though honestly, she was heck bent on it, so any arguing might have just wasted more time, that Odd, Millie, and Tamiya did not have).

I think the fact that Ulrich and Yumi are more accepting of Aelita's martyr complex and her preference of putting other's safety before her own is that they too share that character trait...albeit not as strongly as she does. Ulrich, to be sure, has a "saving people thing", as seen most prominently in "The Robots", "False Start", and "Vertigo", among other episodes, and Yumi is not really far behind him in that respect, when one considers episodes like "Cruel Dilemma" and "Satellite".

Ulrich, Yumi, and Aelita all seem to have a common understanding of putting others safety before their own, as opposed to Jeremie who, while he'd like to put the majoritys' safety before his own, will inevitably put Aelita's safety before his own...and then the majoritys. Odd...well, he never really considers his own safety, period, which makes him more of a wild card than anything.

And as has been shown, he doesn't have what many would consider much of a life. He dropped everything for Aelita. He sacrificed his time and efforts to save her and his motivation was that they could be together. Of course we never hear his interior monolouges, but I imagine he has a greater grip on the situation than is shown. he does love her, and she loves him.

That may well be, but, in keeping with the title of the thread, he's not that bright at times. He sees the abstract (like designing an anti-virus program to help Aelita), but not the concrete (that his single-mindedness is worrying her). He's not noticing that he risks ruining her life in his attempts to save it. Temptation dealt with that issue. His lack of foresight and empathy are his biggest flaws.

This probably goes back to Jeremie being selfish for somebody else. He basically sees the solution to all their troubles is to find the anti-virus for Aelita. No more worries about her risking her life and living in constant danger or fear. He placed himself in danger, just so she wouldn't have to. He's trading in his well-being for Aelita's. Probably in his mind, aslong as Aelita can live safely, that's all that truly matters in the end. If you think about it, Aelita and Jeremie have that as a similarity. Jeremie would give up his safety for her, just like how Aelita gives up her safety for others.

Exactly. I completely agree with that anaylsis of Jeremie's character. Very nicely put, animenologist. ^^

To side-track to Ulrich and Yumi's relationship, a verbal confirmation wouldn't really be needed in their case either (*ducks tomatoes from Y/U fans*), for the simple reason that they share a similar understanding that they care for each other. Plus, Ulrich's confession of "I need you" in "Cold War" honestly, would have sufficed enough for me, had Yumi only heard it (although there is a snowball's chance that she might have). "I need you", to me, anyway, is just as powerful, if not more so, an admission as "I love you", if one takes in the connotations behind it. Needing someone in your life in order to live or even be happy, is a pretty serious thing. But I digress...

Still a verbal confirmation that both of them hear and acknowledge would stop all the insecurities they've been having about their relationship. Though Ulrich saying "I need you" in Cold War reinforces the audience's views, it does nothing for the relationship itself. What William said in Marabounta has some truth to it. If Ulrich doesn't say something soon, he will lose Yumi, because as it stands, their relationship is built on a fairly shakey foundation.

I rather disagree though, on the idea that their relationship is built on a shaky foundation. It's more that only Ulrich "thinks" (or used to think) that it's shaky. Ulrich, until only recently, felt that William was a huge threat to his relationship with Yumi, despite the fact that Yumi regularly told him William was "a friend" (although no one ever believes that anyway, to be fair). Yumi, on the other hand, has become far more accepting of Sissi's "crush" on Ulrich, as after "St. Valentines Day", none of Sissi's advances bothered her and she was far more friendly to Sissi after she helped out in "Missing Link", which may point to the fact that she has a great deal of faith in the fact that Ulrich feels the same for her, that she does for him, regardless of what Sissi may try to pull.

She only ever becomes frustrated with Ulrich, when he does something none too bright, such as spy (unnecessarily) on her during "Marabounta", endanger the group's secret like in "The Chips Are Down", or ask Sissi out in an attempt to make her jealous because he mistakenly believed William had asked her out, as in "The Key". Yumi's overcome her jealous tendencies, and Ulrich just needs to catch up, which I think is what "The Key" pointed to. Their relationship only appeared rocky because Ulrich viewed it as threatened, when in all actuality...it wasn't.

Plus, to go back to the idea that Ulrich has to "make a move" soon, I disagree because in Yumi's mind, she's made her choice. William is too pedantic about pursuing her affections to completely admit (although he is obviously aware of it), and Ulrich is naturally oblivious to it, which is both likely a maturity thing, as well as the fact that he tends to go slightly blind with jealousy whenever William makes another attempt. I can't say I blame him as I honestly don't approve of William's advances at her, when he knows she already likes someone else, myself. But again, I digress. Yumi and Ulrich's relationship is actually pretty strong though, when all things are considered.

I would like to end it with this. If you look at it from Jeremie's pov, its not that hard to understand him or what he's getting at. What is their mission? To stop XANA? Not entirely. Their mission is to stop XANA while at the same time ensuring Aelita's safety. The gang probably sees some inherent worth in her that is worth protecting, despite the great risks. If all there was to the mission was to the stop XANA, it could be done at the simple flip of a switch. In Jeremie's mind, she is worth doing everything possible to save her. Probably would explain his overprotectiveness. If she was just going to hand herself over to XANA and so willingly meet her demise, what exactly is the point of the mission for the past 2 seasons? Her survival is everything he's fighting for, to have her die means the loss of someone special to him and as well as failing the mission.

Again, nicely put. Although I don't think that Odd, Ulrich, and Yumi view her as being "worthy of saving" so much as they view her as a "living person who they'd rather not be responsible for the death of". So far as they were concerned, Aelita was a sentient being, and therefore deserving of the same rights that any human would...which includes a choice in precisely what fate they meet. Odd, Yumi, and Ulrich (particularly the last two), do indeed look at things more objectively than Jeremie, in regards to Aelita, but they do view her as a "friend" and fellow "human being".

[FormicaArchonis offline]

I think in a lot of ways, it is not that Jeremie is not empathatic, he just tends to take the role of saving the world more seriously.

That's a distinct possibility. But I don't know if that speaks better of him or worse. A lack of empathy is actually a well-defined trait of the "hacker" type. It doesn't mean they're callous or immoral, it just means they don't have a good handle on figuring out wetware (other humans) as opposed to hardware or software. If he was empathetic and capable of putting himself into other people's shoes, but wrote his observations off as secondary to fighting XANA, he's approaching the philosophy that the end justifies the means, which is immoral.

Another angle: When he nags the others while they're on Lyoko and tells them to hurry up, as if they aren't fighting for their lives, is it simply because he doesn't quite understand they're trying their hardest and are as worried about the real world as he is, or is it because he does understand but figures their best isn't good enough and they need to be pushed harder? The first is lack of empathy, the second is being a taskmaster.

there are many nights he stays up to no end trying to find an answer. I am amazed he hasn't snapped more than he already has.

He's due for a visit from the nice young men in their clean white coats, huh?:)

I think that the connection there is what keeps them together, because Jeremie also worries about Aelita as much as she does him. I guess we will just have to wait until season three to get a better understanding.

True enough. I think he's genuinely concerned for her, too. He just doesn't understand what she needs from him.

Both Yumi and Ulrich have had XANA put their families in danger. I think if anything could convince either of them to pull the plug, Jeremie or no, it'd be that.

But at the same time, Ulrich and Yumi are more accomadating to Aelita's martyr complex. A lot of times, Aelita likes to place herself behind the lives of others, and in many cases, Ulrich and Yumi are most willing to allow her to do so.

Very true! If Jeremie is too detached, then Aelita isn't detached enough. (It's like she sees adversity and says "Oooh! Another cross! I think I'll bear it!" Her last line of the second season, that it's her job to fight XANA, is an example as well.) And Ulrich and Yumi are effectively serving to enable the behaviours of both Jeremie and Aelita. So how did a sane guy like Odd get involved with all these nutballs, anyway?:)

If you think about it, Aelita and Jeremie have that as a similarity. Jeremie would give up his safety for her, just like how Aelita gives up her safety for others.

Even though neither outcome is what anyone but themselves want. They have it in common, but it ultimately means they work at cross-purposes. (The more I think about it, the more I realize they deserve each other. )

once the kids get wise to his crude manipulations, he'll have to become more sophisticated. Of course, these kids don't have a great track record for getting wise to relationship stuff. :/

But knowing of their relationship gives XANA a psychological edge. Affecting one, will affect the other and he understands it well enough to use it to his advantage. But what I was trying to get at was having to hide their feelings to one another because XANA might use it against them is unnecessary since XANA already knows.

Ah, okay. Similarly, what I was originally getting at - at least, what I think I was getting at, 4000 words later it's all kind of fuzzy - is that a relationship is a risky proposition in and of itself even if XANA doesn't use it to his advantage. When any member of the group gets into a "I don't want to talk to you!" mode and goes sulking or crying somewhere, it causes problems. It leaves the person who's alone out of the loop during a crisis, or it makes them an easy target. If emotions start running any hotter, that sort of thing might get worse.