Who is the main character?

[Osiris offline]

odd as decoy lol

pretty cool i alwas saw them as all the leaders of the group they all build on each others weaknesses

[animenologist offline]

There is nothing really wrong with there being a leader. Just because one leads, doesn't diminish their teamwork or any specific team members importance. Being leader means having having the most authority and being the head in organizing the group. Thats why I say Jeremie is the leader, he has been shown to have the most authority in group decision making, the organizer of the team's missions, their rallier, and ultimate informant. He's basically the head of the groups operations.

But just because he's the leader, doesn't mean he rules absolutely. In most modern nations, even the highest power is not infallible. There are ways of checking his authority, which the group has done before. And many times, they don't need to have an autocratic leader telling them everything. Everything they do comes natural to them so all they need Jeremie for is to keep them on track and organized. He tells them their priorities, they get it done, in their own ways.

He leads them because of his position. And he's in his position because he's the most qualified to do so. So his leadership comes from his qualifications. But no matter what, a leader can not do anything without those he organizes. And the others do their parts wonderfully and are important to the team.

[Waves_blade offline]

Do you wright speeches for a living? As for most important..... I'll go with Aelita. No tower deactivator = Screwed + no reason to keep the Super CPU on and would mean THE END OF CODE LYOKO!!!

[Skorpigeist offline]

I would agree on both sides of the issue of what a leader is. By dictionary defeniton a leader is someone who leads a group of people or commands them. But just because you are a leader doesn't make you a "Leader." There are other qualifications that are needed. you might as well argue about love if you are going to get so beyond a text definition.

that being said, you part about jeremie not being able to make a decision underfire doesn't make much sense to me. First of all, he is at the supercomputer and can't really see every little thing that is going on. another thing is that he doesn't have acess to the schematics and programs of the monsters that Xana uses (otherwise he would just bug them or destroy them completely). So he pretty much is powerless, and not being able to fully see what is going on with a video feed (granted aelita can give him one but that is another point) he can't exactly make a decision. also he loves aelita. I don't know about you, but if the love of my life was being attacked by some sort of monster, and the only ones who could stop it where my friends, I probably would be hollering for them to do something. anyway, that is just my two cents on that long chain of posts.

[rachaelkawaii offline]

Yeah, I don't think someone can just pick a main character and it be fair...because I think there isn't really meant to have just one main character. I mean, they all work together and to me the episodes don't focus on just one person...

[Mewberries151]

Yeah, I don't think someone can just pick a main character and it be fair...because I think there isn't really meant to have just one main character. I mean, they all work together and to me the episodes don't focus on just one person...

Good point. That's still more or less my opinion on the whole thing.

*grins* Although, I'm wondering...perhaps they all take turns being the leader... *cue thought sequence*

LyokoFreak: So, who is you leader?

Jeremie: Look. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.

LyokoFreak: Ahh...

Jeremie: But all the decisions of that officer must be approved at a bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs. But a two-thirds majority...

LyokoFreak: *faint*

[sweetness101 offline]

Ithink the most important character is Aelita because without her there wouldn't really be no point for the show.

[animenologist offline]

Don't you just love how discussions like this seem to meander a bit. At first we're discussing main characters, which we come to the conclusion that they're all main characters, to the most important character, which we believe to be Aelita, to the leader of the group, which has 2 competing thoughts. One feeling that the group is leaderless and that they have equal authority under group decisions, and one where Jeremie is leader, but only from an organizational point of view where he just makes the big decisions and keep the group on task.

Sorry about going on a tangent like that, but I thought it interesting as to how this discussion has traveled so far.

[Skorpigeist offline]

Don't you just love how discussions like this seem to meander a bit. At first we're discussing main characters, which we come to the conclusion that they're all main characters, to the most important character, which we believe to be Aelita, to the leader of the group, which has 2 competing thoughts. One feeling that the group is leaderless and that they have equal authority under group decisions, and one where Jeremie is leader, but only from an organizational point of view where he just makes the big decisions and keep the group on task.

Sorry about going on a tangent like that, but I thought it interesting as to how this discussion has traveled so far.

haha true, but that is the nature of conversation.

[YDV offline]

Yeah, I don't think someone can just pick a main character and it be fair...because I think there isn't really meant to have just one main character. I mean, they all work together and to me the episodes don't focus on just one person...

Good point. That's still more or less my opinion on the whole thing.

*grins* Although, I'm wondering...perhaps they all take turns being the leader... *cue thought sequence*

LyokoFreak: So, who is you leader?

Jeremie: Look. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.

LyokoFreak: Ahh...

Jeremie: But all the decisions of that officer must be approved at a bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs. But a two-thirds majority...

LyokoFreak: *faint*

xD Haha, that was priceless!

Yeah, that is kind aof weird... What WERE we supposed to be talking about? lol

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

...TFL... are you saying that Jeremie isn't competant enough to lead the team, or that he's not the leader? That's just what I'm picking up.

And if that is the case, how could you say that? It's so obvious! (Do you like, hate him or something? Because it really sounds like it.)

No I don't hate Jeremie. Discussion of his flaws fall within this discussion. Jeremie is the head of the group. I make a distinction between that and a leader - one who actually leads as opposed to manage, bark orders, etc. Reasons have already been discussed.

I don't know about you, but if the love of my life was being attacked by some sort of monster, and the only ones who could stop it where my friends, I probably would be hollering for them to do something. anyway, that is just my two cents on that long chain of posts.

If he can't offer anything but his screaming, he needs to keep his mouth shut and not distract his friends who know what's going on and are doing something about it. Too much information and stimuli are bad things when the world is going to hell around you.

[animenologist offline]

No I don't hate Jeremie. Discussion of his flaws fall within this discussion. Jeremie is the head of the group. I make a distinction between that and a leader - one who actually leads as opposed to manage, bark orders, etc. Reasons have already been discussed.

Except you're using a definition that is not used by everyone or not even the majority of the people. The head of a group is defined as their leader according to any dictionary or common usage of the term. You define that a leader must be competent at "leading". You say that you prefer to argue reality, but in reality the common and most often usage of the word in accordance to the context that we're discussing is the guy in charge. Whether you agree or not does not alter the reality of what people consider the word leader to mean. Now whether you feel Jeremie is a competent "leader" or even the "leader" according to definition is another story, of which you're free to argue and is actually quite the discussion in itself.

If he can't offer anything but his screaming, he needs to keep his mouth shut and not distract his friends who know what's going on and are doing something about it. Too much information and stimuli are bad things when the world is going to hell around you.

So I take it you don't find Patton to be a leader since he is known to be as loud as a "Sherman tank" when commanding his army. Or do you feel the military creates poor leaders because during training the leaders will scream at their recruits? Even in times of battle, a little screaming helps keeps up the urgency and I've known a few people in leading positions who like to scream at their subordinates to keep up the adrenaline so they are not lax. Its never anything personal, and I don't know about you, but when I'm being lead and and the leader screams at me, I hustle a lot quicker, provided I trust him/her (if I don't that usually leads to dissent, but a good leader knows how to gain trust).

Do you believe that if Jeremie was the leader, he should just sit back and say there are monsters over there coming to you, the tower is over there and here is how you get there, or XANA is doing this please do this? In other words, he should only do what is concretely useful from his position? From his screen, the only concrete thing he can do is provide information. But on top of that, he is the big decision maker as I've stated multiple times. In most cases, it is Jeremie's counsel that they seek, showing that they trust Jeremie and his judgement for the most part.

He's made it clear that he holds authority of when they should go to Lyoko and where they should go. He keeps the group updated and rallies them when they're needed. And come the big decisions, he is usually given the choice. Take St. Valentines Day, he made the big decision to persuade the Scyphozoa to give up Aelita, by threatening to kill him. In Contact, he recommended that Ulrich stay and guard the tower which ultimately lead to him creating the program to decrypt Hopper's diary, even though Aelita took off to for the activated tower. In Revelation, Jeremie told Ulrich to go back to isolate the tower as well as found Odd's cell phone and sent Yumi to investigate.

And I actually agree with Samblob using Zero Gravity Zone as a mark of good leadership. You say that was it was poor leadership for Jeremie to guilt-trip him into getting Mrs. Hertz. Well, Jeremie actually left Ulrich alone after hearing Odd's explanation. I think that is actually benevolent of Jeremie not to pursue the matter further and to let him continue with his game since Ulrich felt so strongly about it. And had Mrs. Hertz not come into the picture, Jeremie probably would have let him continue. But the problem is, Mrs. Hertz was in immediate danger and everyone else was occupied. Would a responsible leader just let Ulrich continue on his game, when a life was in immediate danger?

You say Ulrich would have done it, because Jeremie was his friend, but it took Jeremie to beg and plead with him to finally get him to come around. If Ulrich did it merely because of friendship, Ulrich would have went back into the school immediately as soon as it was realized that someone was still in the building. Instead Ulrich ran back onto the field and kept pleading for Jeremie to not make him stop playing. The thing was, someone is in danger, and only one person can save and he is unwilling. Jeremie needed to convince Ulrich that it needs to be done. You say he "guilt-tripped" him into doing it. I say, Jeremie actually made a convincing argument and did what he needed to get him to move. Really, what was wrong with what Jeremie said?

Oh no! She's probably in the chemistry lab. You've gotta go and get her out. Ulrich! Look, I'm sorry Ulrich, you've got to leave the game. You're the only one who can do it. You've got to save her. It's a matter of life and death, Ulrich! Ulrich, what are you ...!

Of course, those last few paragraphs are assuming that Jeremie is by the textbook definition, the leader of the group. Whether he is leader of the group or not is a debate gone on for a few pages.

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

Except you're using a definition that is not used by everyone or not even the majority of the people. The head of a group is defined as their leader according to any dictionary or common usage of the term. You define that a leader must be competent at "leading". You say that you prefer to argue reality, but in reality the common and most often usage of the word in accordance to the context that we're discussing is the guy in charge. Whether you agree or not does not alter the reality of what people consider the word leader to mean. Now whether you feel Jeremie is a competent "leader" or even the "leader" according to definition is another story, of which you're free to argue and is actually quite the discussion in itself.

Most people thought the Earth was flat. Most people thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. And most people wouldn't know a leader if one walked up and slapped them.

So I take it you don't find Patton to be a leader since he is known to be as loud as a "Sherman tank" when commanding his army.

Poor choice for several reasons.
1. There is a great deal more to Patton's leadership than simply being "as loud as a Sherman tank" that involves his conduct before, during, and after operations. Simply using a quote of his notoriety and what's shown in a Hollywood movie fails to grasp at how he really was. If you're going to use him as an example, you need to improve your research.
2. Patton shouts orders which is completely different from Jeremie's screams of panic.

Or do you feel the military creates poor leaders because during training the leaders will scream at their recruits?

Again, this fails to address the argument. There is a time and place for the Drill Sergeant/Drill Instructor routine. Recruits are being subjected to an intentional focus of disorder to mold them into the desired result because they are not military yet. There is also a time and place for it in unit training, but a "leader" whose only course of direction is the DS/DI routine is a poor one. The military has many of these in all ranks. And again, it fails in this argument because the screaming here is a purposeful one as opposed to Jeremie's screams of panic.

Even in times of battle, a little screaming helps keeps up the urgency and I've known a few people in leading positions who like to scream at their subordinates to keep up the adrenaline so they are not lax.

If the "leader" needed to scream at his suboordinates to maintain a sense of urgency and keep them from becoming laxed during a battle, then there is already a failure in leadership before this even happened.

Its never anything personal, and I don't know about you, but when I'm being lead and and the leader screams at me, I hustle a lot quicker, provided I trust him/her (if I don't that usually leads to dissent, but a good leader knows how to gain trust).

See above.

Do you believe that if Jeremie was the leader, he should just sit back and say there are monsters over there coming to you, the tower is over there and here is how you get there, or XANA is doing this please do this? In other words, he should only do what is concretely useful from his position? From his screen, the only concrete thing he can do is provide information.

Given his position and lack of ability to perform much else, yes. A leader needs to know when to step back and allow those on the ground to do the job they know best. Also given the fact of his overwatch ability and usually lack of danger, he has the ability to see the battlefield and filter all information to only what is important for the team. And screaming "AH! Do something!" or the like isn't that.

But on top of that, he is the big decision maker as I've stated multiple times. In most cases, it is Jeremie's counsel that they seek, showing that they trust Jeremie and his judgement for the most part.

And as many time making decisions he wasn't qualified to make leading to near disaster.

He's made it clear that he holds authority of when they should go to Lyoko and where they should go.

Being that he's the only one who could do it without nearly killing everyone, it's more common sense on the team's part.

And I actually agree with Samblob using Zero Gravity Zone as a mark of good leadership. You say that was it was poor leadership for Jeremie to guilt-trip him into getting Mrs. Hertz. Well, Jeremie actually left Ulrich alone after hearing Odd's explanation.

Which was a mistake. Protecting everyone vs. family problems that an RTTP would have have remedied, now which is more important?

But the problem is, Mrs. Hertz was in immediate danger and everyone else was occupied. Would a responsible leader just let Ulrich continue on his game, when a life was in immediate danger?

No she wasn't. In fact, of all those threatened by the zero gravity, she was the safest inside the building. Sending Ulrich in accomplished nothing but put him in needless risk. A responsible leader would have sent Ulrich to Lyoko.

You say he "guilt-tripped" him into doing it. I say, Jeremie actually made a convincing argument and did what he needed to get him to move. Really, what was wrong with what Jeremie said?

He played with Ulrich's morals to make him do something against his wishes. That's more a violation of the trust between them than making a convicing argument. You consider that good leadership?

[Mewberries151]

I think the main problem is that Ulrich, Odd, Yumi and Aelita aren't his "subordinates". They're his friends. He's not in charge of them...and their fate isn't in anyway particularly tied to his in any specific situation. He "pleads" with them or "shouts" at them, because he's asking them to do him this favor, and because he doesn't want to see them hurt in addition to Aelita.

Team Lyoko isn't a military unit. They're a group of kids doing the best they can to combat something that they found themselves involved with, and in danger of. Treating them as if they're seasoned soldiers and generals is never going to work...because they're only 13 and 14 year old kids. They can't be expected to act like them, and I think they should even be given due credit for doing the best they can and with what little resources they have (mainly their wits and their friendship).

If you honestly want to look at it as who would make the best "leader" for the group in the sense that you're using, it would be someone like the "Principal" or maybe even "Jim", seeing as how he knew precisely what to do for the rest of the students in "Cold War", and was perfectly prepared. And I'm sure everyone would agree that telling either one of them about Lyoko, or making either one the leader, would ultimately be a poor idea.

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

That's a good reminder, Mewberries151. It also shows they are lacking cohesion. Jeremie needs to start making them work as a team and not in the ad hoc fashion they've been doing. That would be leading, and I think the potential is there.

[animenologist offline]

They are not meant to be an well-organized and well-oiled group. They are supposed to be friends with a single goal in mind. And different leaders lead differently based on their philosophy and who they are leading. Whether you feel its good leadership is merely opinion, but try to think about who they are.

They are teenagers in one of the most imbalanced time of their lives. They've been thrusted upon with a responsibility that for would shatter the minds of so many others, and yet they have endured through friendship. Jeremie leads them by keeping them on track and what in as much order as they can without greatly straining their friendship. Not everyone leads like the army or leads like an autocrat.

I was a squadron commander in JROTC and was the head engineer of my high school engineering club. I kinda understand the duties that go along with being the head guy in a group. It may not be the kind of leadership you've come to expect based on your experiences, but these are just high school students, each of different disciplines and should be handled differently.

Most people thought the Earth was flat. Most people thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. And most people wouldn't know a leader if one walked up and slapped them.

You are arguing a definition. Most people think that the word blue means the color the see with their eyes with a wavelength of about 475 nm. Most people define a television as a pictographic machine used to transport images about. Most people define a girl to be the opposite of a boy based upon certain anatomical differences. Are you saying that because you feel you know better, that the word they have created a definition for is wrong? If I am a pro in tvs and I say that a TV should be 42 in. HD widescreen plasma tv, does that mean that I can tell another person that their 15 in, black and white american produced 1950s cathode ray tube tv that still only uses dials and has no remote is not a tv?

Poor choice for several reasons.
1. There is a great deal more to Patton's leadership than simply being "as loud as a Sherman tank" that involves his conduct before, during, and after operations. Simply using a quote of his notoriety and what's shown in a Hollywood movie fails to grasp at how he really was. If you're going to use him as an example, you need to improve your research.
2. Patton shouts orders which is completely different from Jeremie's screams of panic.

Again, this fails to address the argument. There is a time and place for the Drill Sergeant/Drill Instructor routine. Recruits are being subjected to an intentional focus of disorder to mold them into the desired result because they are not military yet. There is also a time and place for it in unit training, but a "leader" whose only course of direction is the DS/DI routine is a poor one. The military has many of these in all ranks. And again, it fails in this argument because the screaming here is a purposeful one as opposed to Jeremie's screams of panic.

Although my knowledge of Patton may be a bit limited, even the greatest of leaders can sometimes let their emotions get the better of them. Such is the situation where he slapped one of his subordinates because he felt him a coward. Jeremie does not always scream and screams to hustle works quite well depending on who recieves the stimulus.

If the "leader" needed to scream at his suboordinates to maintain a sense of urgency and keep them from becoming laxed during a battle, then there is already a failure in leadership before this even happened.

You know one of the people he leads is Odd right? He usually has the hardest time keeping it serious and at times, and can be entirely reckless. So either he can try to keep him on task while during the mission, or do you think he should try and mold him into a more serious guy? And that can actually go for any particular team member. Jeremie's not his taskmaster, he's his friend. So unless you feel Jeremie should put his friends through some kinda boot camp, saving his screams of hustle for during the mission is not a bad course of action for the people he leads, while keeping the status quo.

Given his position and lack of ability to perform much else, yes. A leader needs to know when to step back and allow those on the ground to do the job they know best. Also given the fact of his overwatch ability and usually lack of danger, he has the ability to see the battlefield and filter all information to only what is important for the team. And screaming "AH! Do something!" or the like isn't that.

Though he may usually be in relative safety, being put in physical danger is not uncommon and he's usually #1 on XANA's most wanted list when it comes to preferred targets. Just because he's not on Lyoko doesn't mean he doesn't have his stresses. At the same time of guiding the team from his look out point, he also has to track the attack in the real world, sometimes having to counter them to give the team time or give them an upperhand.

And as many time making decisions he wasn't qualified to make leading to near disaster.

If they didn't trust Jeremie's judgement to make a decision, they would have never followed him in the first place. And even the greatest generals will lose their battles. Atleast most of the time when Jeremie makes a mistake, he works his hardest to correct it, usually successfully. He's not infallible, he's only human. And again, his friends trust his decisions. If he was not qualified, what makes you feel that those who follow his advice are any moreso?

Being that he's the only one who could do it without nearly killing everyone, it's more common sense on the team's part.

Except he's not the only one. Aelita can also bring them to Lyoko as well. If Jeremie wasn't qualified to have such authority, give it to Aelita. She is capable of virutualizing them safely consistently. Even in Season 1, she has shown she can operate the scanner while still in Lyoko. And even in Season 2, he still has authority over the scanner as Exploration and St. Valentines Day has shown.

Which was a mistake. Protecting everyone vs. family problems that an RTTP would have have remedied, now which is more important?

Except they don't always RTTP. Frontier, Uncharted Territory, and possibly Ghost Channel and this was before they realized XANA got stronger with each jump. Even if they didn't know, time travel is a serious business and one not taken for fairly trivial matters. They didn't need Ulrich at the time and if the mission went without a hitch, Ulrich would have missed his game and compounded his family problems. So why not let Ulrich have his game, if it meant so much and they'll try and do our best to not interrupt it.

No she wasn't. In fact, of all those threatened by the zero gravity, she was the safest inside the building. Sending Ulrich in accomplished nothing but put him in needless risk. A responsible leader would have sent Ulrich to Lyoko.

The first attack was going to hit the chemistry lab. XANA can manipulate the gravity of the building in any orientation. Think having suddenly the room turn upside down than falling face first into the ceiling. Thats enough to cause serious injury. Mess with the gravity enough, she can have her fall down the hallway a few stories to her death. With the way XANA was planning his attack on the soccer field, it wold happen after the attack on the lab and would take a few minutes to launch a person into outer space. So Mrs. Hertz is going to be attack first and has the greater potential for harm. Don't see why it was wrong to go get her first.

He played with Ulrich's morals to make him do something against his wishes. That's more a violation of the trust between them than making a convicing argument. You consider that good leadership?

Ulrich wouldn't move and he was the only one who could do something. How was it a play on morals? Everything he said was true, it was a matter of life and death, and he was the only one who could do it. He even said he was sorry to make him get out of the game. Are you saying it is breaking of trust to use the truth as an argument because it played with him on emotional level or that its a violation of their friendship to beg and plead with him to do the right thing?

I think the main problem is that Ulrich, Odd, Yumi and Aelita aren't his "subordinates". They're his friends. He's not in charge of them...and their fate isn't in anyway particularly tied to his in any specific situation. He "pleads" with them or "shouts" at them, because he's asking them to do him this favor, and because he doesn't want to see them hurt in addition to Aelita.

Team Lyoko isn't a military unit. They're a group of kids doing the best they can to combat something that they found themselves involved with, and in danger of. Treating them as if they're seasoned soldiers and generals is never going to work...because they're only 13 and 14 year old kids. They can't be expected to act like them, and I think they should even be given due credit for doing the best they can and with what little resources they have (mainly their wits and their friendship).

I agree and that is what I've been saying for a while. Jeremie is not an autocrat, not a dictator, not a totalitarian. He is the teams organizer, rallier, tactician, moderator, and BIG decision maker. He does not tell them what to do like they are soldiers, he tells them what to do to make sure they understand their priorities and remain on task. Everything else is given to the group, because they understand what must be done and are given freedom make decisions how they see fit. Even though that basically puts Jeremie at the head of the team, he does not command them like children or underlings, he musters their courage as the friend that he is.

As an example, when I was part of my school's engineering club as their head engineer, it was my responsiblity to get all our projects done on time. Now I didn't do this by telling all my team mates that they must do this or that. I assigned them their projects and periodically check up on them to make sure it meets specification and that they are chugging along. But as long as specifications were being met, creative freedom went to whoever actively worked on the project. Other than that I was just there to keep them on task.

That's how I feel Jeremie organizes the team. He's there to keep the mission on task and priorities met. But other than that, he treats his friends like they're his friends, not his subordinates, not his army, not his henchman, like logical human beings who understand what needs to be done and how to get it done, just with a little guidance. That is how I feel he leads. Although, some may not consider this leading, but eh.

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

I would have to say Odd or Yumi. XANA seems to attack them the most. They are the strongest physically and I think Odd may be smarter than he lets on. (Tutoring Ulrich and Jeremie admitting Odd was better at Itallian). Also Yumi did operate the super-computer a few times. Yumi and Odd are the leaders no doubt about it!

[Mewberries151]

That's a good reminder, Mewberries151. It also shows they are lacking cohesion. Jeremie needs to start making them work as a team and not in the ad hoc fashion they've been doing. That would be leading, and I think the potential is there.

Thanks.

I am still one for the "there is no true leader" theory. Jeremie takes command in certain respects, while Aelita, Yumi, Odd, and Ulrich take the lead in others. They all take the front when it's needed. Odd took the front in "Just In Time" and in "Laughing Fit". Ulrich's made tactical decisions for the group before as well, and if one thinks about it...his entire Lyoko power is based off of strategic planning. He has two clones at his dispersal, and he has to figure out what would be the best way to use them (whether it be for decoy uses, or executing certain battle strategies). Yumi, Aelita, and Jeremie's dealings with leadership are strewn thoughout several episodes.

I still honestly doubt the existence of a "true leader" within this group. That's probably another reason why they combat XANA so well. Because XANA is a computer, he'll tend to logically have his minions act as a unit (seem most prominently in "The Chips Are Down"). Now working as a "unit" is a powerful strategy indeed, but it's not infallible. It doesn't allow for improvization or for individual decision changes that might be needed. Team Lyoko, particularly Odd, all act on their own intuitions and mind sets. All of those variables in a battle can't be accounted for, which makes for a difficult team to beat.

[animenologist offline]

I fall under the Jeremie is a "hands-off" type of leader. Again, each one has their say and are allowed to follow their minds of what is necessary. But the head and organizer falls under Jeremie's jurisdiction. I'm of the opinion that a leader does not always lead autocratically, nor does he not relinquish his power at times. But the person who carries the most authority is the head of the group and the one who I feel is the "leader".

Leaders do sometimes allow others to lead. Take for example the president of the US. He holds the most authority out of any person in the country and why people say he leads the country. But he doesn't run everything. State governments run the states at the state level most of the time and military generals will run the army, even though they ultimately answer to the president, just like how someone in the gang will make decisions here and there while in a Lyoko battle or when Jeremie is not actively communicating. And despite his authority, the president can be overcome if %66 of the House and Senate were in control and against him, just like how the gang ruled against him in Seeing is Believing and Franz Hopper.

Of course, as I keep saying, I'm just placing Jeremie in the leader position, because he has and has shown the most authority. How he uses it is pretty lax and hands-off in my opinion, again giving the group allowance to think for themselves, with him to give them direction. Its like saying, you have to get from point A to point B and here is the general layout of the land you can travel. But other than keeping track of your progress to make sure you get there, how you get there is your decision.

I also feel that the tactics required to use Ulrich's powers is not evidence to his authority. If you've ever played a fantasy style MMO, the most tactical classes are always the snipers and the assassins. They're tactical because they have the advantage of having the greatest freedom in choosing their time of attack, their place of attack, and their opponents at the cost of outright fire power and survival. But whenever a group is formed, leadership is given to the person who created the group, not the most tactical minded class.

Jeremie provides direction and is at the head of the group, if even by a slightly noticeable amount, since they work so well in tandem together. They know what to do and how to do it, and only need minimal direction to keep them on track. But I feel the person who provides direction is the one who leads them. Thats why I feel Jeremie is their leader.

[Blazer offline]

I think they're all the main charecter.. I mean, sure, Aelita is the most needed charecter, but without any of them, the show wouldn't be as good. they all represent a different personality.
Ulrich is mostly serious and logical.
Odd is funny and immature.
Yumi is the most mature and thoughtful one

Aelita is the peaceful, caring and sensitive one
And Jeremy is intelligent and thinks things through.
They're ALL needed

Blazer

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

They are not meant to be an well-organized and well-oiled group. They are supposed to be friends with a single goal in mind. And different leaders lead differently based on their philosophy and who they are leading. Whether you feel its good leadership is merely opinion, but try to think about who they are.

They are teenagers in one of the most imbalanced time of their lives. They've been thrusted upon with a responsibility that for would shatter the minds of so many others, and yet they have endured through friendship. Jeremie leads them by keeping them on track and what in as much order as they can without greatly straining their friendship. Not everyone leads like the army or leads like an autocrat.

I was a squadron commander in JROTC and was the head engineer of my high school engineering club. I kinda understand the duties that go along with being the head guy in a group. It may not be the kind of leadership you've come to expect based on your experiences, but these are just high school students, each of different disciplines and should be handled differently.

I never said anything about leading like an autocrat being the sole way of leadership. We can make endless amount of excuses for the kids, but the fact is they've decided to play a big boy game, and big boy rules apply regardless of their age. "Life and death" has a very steep learning curve. Were it not for the fact that Xana is completely incompetent, the kids would not have lived as long as they have doing things their way. I think your "shatter the minds" view is a little exaggerated given what we've seen - Xana is not that great of a threat, even to these kids.

You are arguing a definition. Most people think that the word blue means the color the see with their eyes with a wavelength of about 475 nm. Most people define a television as a pictographic machine used to transport images about. Most people define a girl to be the opposite of a boy based upon certain anatomical differences. Are you saying that because you feel you know better, that the word they have created a definition for is wrong? If I am a pro in tvs and I say that a TV should be 42 in. HD widescreen plasma tv, does that mean that I can tell another person that their 15 in, black and white american produced 1950s cathode ray tube tv that still only uses dials and has no remote is not a tv?

Then we've reached, in MB151's words, an impasse. You are willing to accept any person in charge as a leader. The stakes in which leadership is tested for me is too high to simply toss the title to anyone.

Although my knowledge of Patton may be a bit limited, even the greatest of leaders can sometimes let their emotions get the better of them. Such is the situation where he slapped one of his subordinates because he felt him a coward. Jeremie does not always scream and screams to hustle works quite well depending on who recieves the stimulus.

Again you've failed to use an example of relevance. The discussion wasn't a matter of emotions, it was Jeremie panicking and adding to the confusion of the battles without contribution. Your example, again, is an apples to oranges comparison. If you do not understand how added useless stimuli, which is Jeremie's contribution in these cases, are a disruption, I suggest doing research on the OODA loop.

You know one of the people he leads is Odd right? He usually has the hardest time keeping it serious and at times, and can be entirely reckless. So either he can try to keep him on task while during the mission, or do you think he should try and mold him into a more serious guy? And that can actually go for any particular team member. Jeremie's not his taskmaster, he's his friend. So unless you feel Jeremie should put his friends through some kinda boot camp, saving his screams of hustle for during the mission is not a bad course of action for the people he leads, while keeping the status quo.

Your argument here only proved my point. And again, Jeremie is not using "screams of hustle", he's freaking out.

Though he may usually be in relative safety, being put in physical danger is not uncommon and he's usually #1 on XANA's most wanted list when it comes to preferred targets. Just because he's not on Lyoko doesn't mean he doesn't have his stresses. At the same time of guiding the team from his look out point, he also has to track the attack in the real world, sometimes having to counter them to give the team time or give them an upperhand.

Perhaps you missed the "usually lack of danger"? None of your argument changes the fact that in his position, his task should be filtering information, not adding to the confusion.

And again, his friends trust his decisions. If he was not qualified, what makes you feel that those who follow his advice are any moreso?

He's more qualified than the others, which is relative.

Except he's not the only one. Aelita can also bring them to Lyoko as well. If Jeremie wasn't qualified to have such authority, give it to Aelita. She is capable of virutualizing them safely consistently. Even in Season 1, she has shown she can operate the scanner while still in Lyoko. And even in Season 2, he still has authority over the scanner as Exploration and St. Valentines Day has shown.

Aelita rarely goes against Jeremie's wishes, if you haven't noticed. Even in the few cases where she has, she became regretful about it. She would likely not work against him if the team asked her to.

Except they don't always RTTP. Frontier, Uncharted Territory, and possibly Ghost Channel and this was before they realized XANA got stronger with each jump. Even if they didn't know, time travel is a serious business and one not taken for fairly trivial matters. They didn't need Ulrich at the time and if the mission went without a hitch, Ulrich would have missed his game and compounded his family problems. So why not let Ulrich have his game, if it meant so much and they'll try and do our best to not interrupt it.

You've picked two season two episodes, and an iffy one from the first. The likelihood of using the RTTP would have been near definite.

The first attack was going to hit the chemistry lab. XANA can manipulate the gravity of the building in any orientation. Think having suddenly the room turn upside down than falling face first into the ceiling. Thats enough to cause serious injury. Mess with the gravity enough, she can have her fall down the hallway a few stories to her death. With the way XANA was planning his attack on the soccer field, it wold happen after the attack on the lab and would take a few minutes to launch a person into outer space. So Mrs. Hertz is going to be attack first and has the greater potential for harm. Don't see why it was wrong to go get her first.

So Xana was specifically targeting Mrs. Hertz? You are saying Jeremie sent Ulrich in to help Hertz not get banged up. What happened? Hertz got banged up. Total accomplished: zero. Actually, I stand corrected. Ulrich also got banged up as did Sissy. Sending Ulrich in to help her accomplished absolutely nothing, a fact that would have been obvious even before he sent Ulrich in.

How was it a play on morals?

Jeremie knew Ulrich's morals would eventually compel him to leave the game. Jeremie continued to press Ulrich's button despite him pleading not to make him go. He played Ulrich.

That's how I feel Jeremie organizes the team. He's there to keep the mission on task and priorities met. But other than that, he treats his friends like they're his friends, not his subordinates, not his army, not his henchman, like logical human beings who understand what needs to be done and how to get it done, just with a little guidance. That is how I feel he leads. Although, some may not consider this leading, but eh.

That's not leading, that's managing. And again, your argument fails because that is not the way Jeremie is.

]Now working as a "unit" is a powerful strategy indeed, but it's not infallible. It doesn't allow for improvization or for individual decision changes that might be needed. Team Lyoko, particularly Odd, all act on their own intuitions and mind sets. All of those variables in a battle can't be accounted for, which makes for a difficult team to beat.

Actually, everything you pointed out is completely wrong. The way Team Lyoko operates would have them decimated by any halfway competent opponent.

[Skorpigeist offline]

I do agree taskforce that any enemy with better planning than Xana would make them look very bad. But I also know, that if it isn't broke, many people will not shore up thier weaknesses. It will take on of thier deaths, or a more serious injury than they have sustained. I agree that they are playing the big game, and that there is more at stake, but until such an event occurs, then they will be just like they are now. I also agree with the animeologist though, so I am sort of in the middle.

[Mewberries151]

They are not meant to be an well-organized and well-oiled group. They are supposed to be friends with a single goal in mind. And different leaders lead differently based on their philosophy and who they are leading. Whether you feel its good leadership is merely opinion, but try to think about who they are.

They are teenagers in one of the most imbalanced time of their lives. They've been thrusted upon with a responsibility that for would shatter the minds of so many others, and yet they have endured through friendship. Jeremie leads them by keeping them on track and what in as much order as they can without greatly straining their friendship. Not everyone leads like the army or leads like an autocrat.

I was a squadron commander in JROTC and was the head engineer of my high school engineering club. I kinda understand the duties that go along with being the head guy in a group. It may not be the kind of leadership you've come to expect based on your experiences, but these are just high school students, each of different disciplines and should be handled differently.

I never said anything about leading like an autocrat being the sole way of leadership. We can make endless amount of excuses for the kids, but the fact is they've decided to play a big boy game, and big boy rules apply regardless of their age. "Life and death" has a very steep learning curve. Were it not for the fact that Xana is completely incompetent, the kids would not have lived as long as they have doing things their way. I think your "shatter the minds" view is a little exaggerated given what we've seen - Xana is not that great of a threat, even to these kids.

But that's like saying, if you can't follow the rules, then get out of the game. Life isn't bound by any sort of "rule". Indeed they may be playing a "big boy" game (life and death), and yes, maybe "big boy rules" apply, but who says they have to follow them in order to assure victory? Life and death does indeed have a very steep learning curve, and I think XANA's thrown quite alot at them, that I doubt few their age, or perhaps older, would have been able to handle (the principal and Jim being particularly prominent). The kids aren't out for any personal gain. They're not even necessarily out to "defeat XANA". They're fighting to free their friend from oppression and death...it's much more like a "rescue mission" where they're fighting to avoid a casualty then it is an actual "war". They (used to) hold the ultimate trump card...which is simply flipping the switch. Instant victory; no more problems. By "big boy rules", wouldn't that be the most logical choice of action, if they were indeed out to simply defeat XANA?

What I'm arguing is that you're applying rules to kids who have no comprehension of "the rules". That's like setting down to play "Monopoly" or "Stratego" (or even "Risk") in front of a 4 year old, and expecting them to play it perfectly. It's never going to happen. They don't have the training, and there's no one there to inform them about the rules they "should be" following (which again might be why they win).

Think of the American colonists fighting the British. Did they play by Britain's rules of engagement? No way. They'd have had theirs handed to them by the sheer force and number of the British army. The rules can't apply in a complete mismatch of power either. Britain lost because their unit training dictated what rules and etiquette of battle they had to follow, and when the Americans completely "over-stepped" them to win, they couldn't improvize fast enough to counter it. (We kind of cheated...if you think about it... ^^; ). I think the same is true of the kids fighting XANA, and that's why they're winning. It's not because of XANA's incompetence (as I'd consider a satellite lazer being aimed at me "mind breaking" enough), so much as it is...well, "cheating".

You know one of the people he leads is Odd right? He usually has the hardest time keeping it serious and at times, and can be entirely reckless. So either he can try to keep him on task while during the mission, or do you think he should try and mold him into a more serious guy? And that can actually go for any particular team member. Jeremie's not his taskmaster, he's his friend. So unless you feel Jeremie should put his friends through some kinda boot camp, saving his screams of hustle for during the mission is not a bad course of action for the people he leads, while keeping the status quo.

Your argument here only proved my point. And again, Jeremie is not using "screams of hustle", he's freaking out.

Though he may usually be in relative safety, being put in physical danger is not uncommon and he's usually #1 on XANA's most wanted list when it comes to preferred targets. Just because he's not on Lyoko doesn't mean he doesn't have his stresses. At the same time of guiding the team from his look out point, he also has to track the attack in the real world, sometimes having to counter them to give the team time or give them an upperhand.

Perhaps you missed the "usually lack of danger"? None of your argument changes the fact that in his position, his task should be filtering information, not adding to the confusion.

And again, his friends trust his decisions. If he was not qualified, what makes you feel that those who follow his advice are any moreso?

He's more qualified than the others, which is relative.

This seems to be more "interpretation" than undeniable fact though. Jeremie might appear to be "shouting out an order to hustle" one person, or "freaking out" to another. The same is true of precisely how much danger one views him to be in at any given time, and how much "more qualified" he is to lead than the others (in all honesty, Yumi or Aelita would be fine leaders by any definitition).

What confuses me though, is that you find Jeremie "more qualified" than the others, to lead, and yet you state he's a "poor leader". This seems to be a mixing of signals almost.

Except they don't always RTTP. Frontier, Uncharted Territory, and possibly Ghost Channel and this was before they realized XANA got stronger with each jump. Even if they didn't know, time travel is a serious business and one not taken for fairly trivial matters. They didn't need Ulrich at the time and if the mission went without a hitch, Ulrich would have missed his game and compounded his family problems. So why not let Ulrich have his game, if it meant so much and they'll try and do our best to not interrupt it.

You've picked two season two episodes, and an iffy one from the first. The likelihood of using the RTTP would have been near definite.

Actually he's picked one episode from season 2, and two episodes from season 1 ("Frontier" and "Ghost Channel").

The first attack was going to hit the chemistry lab. XANA can manipulate the gravity of the building in any orientation. Think having suddenly the room turn upside down than falling face first into the ceiling. Thats enough to cause serious injury. Mess with the gravity enough, she can have her fall down the hallway a few stories to her death. With the way XANA was planning his attack on the soccer field, it wold happen after the attack on the lab and would take a few minutes to launch a person into outer space. So Mrs. Hertz is going to be attack first and has the greater potential for harm. Don't see why it was wrong to go get her first.

So Xana was specifically targeting Mrs. Hertz? You are saying Jeremie sent Ulrich in to help Hertz not get banged up. What happened? Hertz got banged up. Total accomplished: zero. Actually, I stand corrected. Ulrich also got banged up as did Sissy. Sending Ulrich in to help her accomplished absolutely nothing, a fact that would have been obvious even before he sent Ulrich in.

XANA targeted the school...thinking more students would be inside of it when he attacked. Yes, Mrs. Hertz got banged up, but she was not killed. XANA started to rapidly change the position of gravity within the building. Had Ulrich not been in there to break her falls, or keep her from falling further during those changes of gravity, who's to say she wouldn't have been hurt worse or killed?

Sissi is a moot point. Jeremie didn't tell her to go in. She followed of her own accord, and put herself in danger, something Jeremie couldn't have possibly accounted for. Actually...sending Ulrich in accomplished quite a bit, as at least there was someone in the building that had some knowledge of what was going on and when the gravity changes might occur, so that Sissi (or any other student who might have been unlucky to wander inside), would have some way to prepare for the throw.

How was it a play on morals?

Jeremie knew Ulrich's morals would eventually compel him to leave the game. Jeremie continued to press Ulrich's button despite him pleading not to make him go. He played Ulrich.

Ulrich is exceedingly stubborn. This is undeniable, and his stubborness tends to blind him as to what is the truth or the right thing to do. When he's in a funk, he will not move until someone does indeed, remind him of what the right thing to do is. Think in "Swarming Attack". He didn't want fight then either. And this time, none of Jeremie's "playing" was doing anything. Yumi, instead, got him to snap out of it. And you certainly can't accuse her of "playing" with him.

That's how I feel Jeremie organizes the team. He's there to keep the mission on task and priorities met. But other than that, he treats his friends like they're his friends, not his subordinates, not his army, not his henchman, like logical human beings who understand what needs to be done and how to get it done, just with a little guidance. That is how I feel he leads. Although, some may not consider this leading, but eh.

That's not leading, that's managing. And again, your argument fails because that is not the way Jeremie is.

This is again interpretation. You have a far different view of Jeremie's character, as does Animenologist and as do I. We all could be right...and we all could be wrong...or one of us could be right. But we'll never truly know. They only people who would know for sure would be the creators, or perhaps Ms. Mann, who voices him and would have to know his character inside and out.

To say that someone's arguement is wrong, simply because their view of Jeremie is different from your own, is a false arguement in itself. An arguement is based on "differing views" after all.

]Now working as a "unit" is a powerful strategy indeed, but it's not infallible. It doesn't allow for improvization or for individual decision changes that might be needed. Team Lyoko, particularly Odd, all act on their own intuitions and mind sets. All of those variables in a battle can't be accounted for, which makes for a difficult team to beat.

Actually, everything you pointed out is completely wrong. The way Team Lyoko operates would have them decimated by any halfway competent opponent.

I disagree, as this goes back to the point I made about the British army battling the colonists in the Revolutionary war. The British army was more than "halfway competent" and they still lost. XANA is more than "halfway competent" but the kids aren't playing by the "rules".

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

I'm going to limit my quoting because these posts are getting huge.

I should clarify "big boy rules". These are not rules. It's a light-hearted way of saying reality applies regardless. Using your Monopoly analogy, it's like saying the four year old playing gets beaten badly in the game because he doesn't understand the rules or how to play. If you choose to play, then big boy rules apply even if you don't accept or understand.

Sorry to tell you this, but you've been taught wrong about the American Revolution. The legend of the American irregular forces is exactly that, a legend. Fact is that the irregular forces of the time were mostly undisciplined and unreliable. At best, they had a miniscule effect on the outcome of the war. The truth was that the war was won by Washington's professional military, trained in the same way as the British military of the time. The war was won on conventional battles using conventional tactics and rules.

I think the same is true of the kids fighting XANA, and that's why they're winning. It's not because of XANA's incompetence (as I'd consider a satellite lazer being aimed at me "mind breaking" enough), so much as it is...well, "cheating".

This is why I'm against raising the rating of the show or making it more serious. It's very difficult to take Xana seriously. The way the show is now, I can suspend my disbelief because the show is light enough. Xana is incompetent. It builds monsters with weak points, then marks that point for all to see. With all it's capable of doing, it fails to kill four kids with no special powers time and time again. That's imcompetence in my book.

What confuses me though, is that you find Jeremie "more qualified" than the others, to lead, and yet you state he's a "poor leader". This seems to be a mixing of signals almost.

Think of it as the best of what you have.

Ulrich didn't break Hertz' fall, he got banged up with her. Ulrich fared no better than Mrs. Hertz when he was in there. Sending Ulrich in accomplished nothing because Ulrich had no ability to stop the gravity distortions. His knowlege of what was going on didn't help because there was nothing he could do to stop it. Had Xana hit the place some more, the likely result would have been both Mrs. Hertz and Ulrich getting killed. The better decision would have been to trigger the fire alarm. Sending Ulrich in served only to put him in needless harm.

I disagree, as this goes back to the point I made about the British army battling the colonists in the Revolutionary war. The British army was more than "halfway competent" and they still lost. XANA is more than "halfway competent" but the kids aren't playing by the "rules".

Already addressed. The way the Lyoko team work makes for an unorganized mess that would be wiped out in a battle. Rather than being a team that is difficult to beat, they are actually easy pickings for anyone knowlegeable in small unit tactics. Fortunately, the writers are on their side.

[animenologist offline]

I should clarify "big boy rules". These are not rules. It's a light-hearted way of saying reality applies regardless. Using your Monopoly analogy, it's like saying the four year old playing gets beaten badly in the game because he doesn't understand the rules or how to play. If you choose to play, then big boy rules apply even if you don't accept or understand.

Sorry to tell you this, but you've been taught wrong about the American Revolution. The legend of the American irregular forces is exactly that, a legend. Fact is that the irregular forces of the time were mostly undisciplined and unreliable. At best, they had a miniscule effect on the outcome of the war. The truth was that the war was won by Washington's professional military, trained in the same way as the British military of the time. The war was won on conventional battles using conventional tactics and rules.

At the same time, parts of reality can be bent by our will and actions, unless you believe in destiny. Life is not as rigid as the rules of Monopoly, and just because there is danger involved and lives at stake, doesn't mean they have to give up their lives when their current effort is doing quite nicely at stopping XANA. "I reject your reality and supplant it with my own."

The American Continental army was inefficient, poorly supplied, and lacking man power. George Washington had not been a military general for 5 years since the end of the French Indian War. Though its not as debilitating as modern warfare is today, that still puts you at an extreme disadvantage. There has never been more than 30,000 standing troops at any one time, and rarely more than 15,000 troops in one place. Militiamen were constantly used to give the army a numerical advantage, and they lacked the ability to produce weaponry for a standing army at the required rate. In 1777, Washington called for the end of a ban on enlisting African Americans because the shortage was so bad. It may have been the conventional army that did most of the battling, but they might as well have been the irregular militia, atleast in comparison to the British army. Really, if it wasn't for the spirit of the soldiers, the help from the French, and the fact that they were fighting on American soil in what is a war of attrition, we probably wouldn't have won.

This is why I'm against raising the rating of the show or making it more serious. It's very difficult to take Xana seriously. The way the show is now, I can suspend my disbelief because the show is light enough. Xana is incompetent. It builds monsters with weak points, then marks that point for all to see. With all it's capable of doing, it fails to kill four kids with no special powers time and time again. That's imcompetence in my book.

For all we know, the monsters may have had the spot because of a failsafe thanks to Franz Hopper (though your suspension of disbelief is warranted). Until Season 2, it couldn't launch pinpoint attacks against them on the factory. Anything too powerful runs the chance of destroying the supercomputer and him as well. Once they make it to the lab, they're safe. And once they're in Lyoko, they have special powers, super endurance, and nigh invulnerability. And Jeremie is a top-knotch computer programmer and hacker. He has given Aelita a background that hasn't warranted search yet. On Lyoko, XANA's at his weakest. Its in the real world where he's such a threat. After all, the attacks on that front is usually pretty successful, until thwarted on Lyoko. Like in Big Bug, XANA was able to create a widespread virus that affected all major computer systems in the country in a matter of hours, something that would be nearly impossible by human creation.

Ulrich didn't break Hertz' fall, he got banged up with her. Ulrich fared no better than Mrs. Hertz when he was in there. Sending Ulrich in accomplished nothing because Ulrich had no ability to stop the gravity distortions. His knowlege of what was going on didn't help because there was nothing he could do to stop it. Had Xana hit the place some more, the likely result would have been both Mrs. Hertz and Ulrich getting killed. The better decision would have been to trigger the fire alarm. Sending Ulrich in served only to put him in needless harm.

Ulrich remained conscious, Mrs. Hertz didn't. Ulrich may have not been able to stop the gravity changes, but he kept Mrs. Hertz from experiencing anything too much worse. XANA could have oriented the building to make her fall down the hallway the way he was going. You're saying that Ulrich did nothing bcause Mrs. Hertz got banged up? Lets say somebody fell into a river and was drowning. Do you say I shouldn't jump in after that person because I might drown as well and the person is already drowning? Mrs. Hertz was injured, Ulrich was there to make sure it didn't get worse for her. The fact that she got banged up is kinda moot. Atleast she didn't die.

Already addressed. The way the Lyoko team work makes for an unorganized mess that would be wiped out in a battle. Rather than being a team that is difficult to beat, they are actually easy pickings for anyone knowlegeable in small unit tactics. Fortunately, the writers are on their side.

A conventional battle perhaps, but they are anything but conventional in their methods and this is anything but a conventional war.