Abortion:Should It, Or Should It Not Be Outlawed?

[JesusFreak offline]

Well, yeah, but we can't ask it now, can we?

[ji45ojperjfenfpen offline]

No it shouldn't be outlawed! Because women get raped sometimes. And if they get pregnant then its not their fault. Besides, there are too many people in the world so losing a few humans before they are even born won't do any harm.

[JesusFreak offline]

Now that last part of your sentence is...I don't know . Every one should have a right to life because he could end up the next Beethoven, Einstein, or Nikolai Tesla.


In some countries, People hope and pray desperately for a child to call their own but in the U.S, we kill our children for being an "inconvenience". Women do get raped, but there are alternatives to sucking the baby's rain out like adoption, perhaps?

[Overcaffeinated Sloth offline]

Unfortunately, JF, that kind of thing is not predetermine d through birth. Everthing, from gnetics to germs to bacteria to HAIR COLOR can determine how your life turns out. Steven Hawkings is just as smart as Einstein, and yet here it was she should've died years ago. Saying that someone who was aborted could've been the next Einstein or Beethoven could aslo mean that that person would be the next Hitler or Terrorist.

And some people have to get abortions. It just so happens that I know someone who had several abortions because it was very dangerous to have children, but wanted to try to go through with it when she decided it would be her last try. And by chance she was born. Saying abortion is wrong is kind of like saying that any woman who can reproduce should, but any who can't and get pregnant desere to die because she is a defective human.

In addition, if you are a male, which I suspect, then you don't know some of the problems of the issue which I don't think you can understand.

[ji45ojperjfenfpen offline]

Now that last part of your sentence is...I don't know . Every one should have a right to life because he could end up the next Beethoven, Einstein, or Nikolai Tesla.


In some countries, People hope and pray desperately for a child to call their own but in the U.S, we kill our children for being an "inconvenience". Women do get raped, but there are alternatives to sucking the baby's rain out like adoption, perhaps?

No, because if you get raped and get pregnant you shouldn't have to deal with the trouble of bearing a child and having to birth it when you didn't do anything to deserve such a thing.

[Gauntlet offline]

Now that last part of your sentence is...I don't know . Every one should have a right to life because he could end up the next Beethoven, Einstein, or Nikolai Tesla.


In some countries, People hope and pray desperately for a child to call their own but in the U.S, we kill our children for being an "inconvenience". Women do get raped, but there are alternatives to sucking the baby's rain out like adoption, perhaps?

No, because if you get raped and get pregnant you shouldn't have to deal with the trouble of bearing a child and having to birth it when you didn't do anything to deserve such a thing.

So, you think the child's death is more important than the mother's inconvenience?

Abortion causes more trauma than whatever post-natal depression will. The mother risks serious mental health problems, infections, miscarriages in later pregnancies, infertility, and even death in some cases. Adding post-abortion depression, along with all these risks, while dealing with the extreme trauma of being raped, sounds like a better idea than giving birth and giving the child up for adoption?

I know that, in most cases, most mothers cannot love a child conceived from a rape incident. In some cases, the child is adopted by a far worse family. But, since we're on the topic of the mother's inconveniences, wouldn't giving birth to the child be easier for the mother? Whether the child goes to a good family or not, she doesn't really have to think about it if she doesn't want to, though if she ever chooses to, she might be able to contact the child later in life, when she is ready. 9 months to bear a child, or spend a vast majority/the rest of your life with post-abortion trauma? Your move.

Nevertheless, I said this earlier, but I don't think abortions should be outlawed. Women would risk even more by traveling out of the country, or even try to abort the child themselves.

[JesusFreak offline]

Unfortunately, JF, that kind of thing is not predetermine d through birth. Everthing, from gnetics to germs to bacteria to HAIR COLOR can determine how your life turns out. Steven Hawkings is just as smart as Einstein, and yet here it was she should've died years ago. Saying that someone who was aborted could've been the next Einstein or Beethoven could aslo mean that that person would be the next Hitler or Terrorist.

And some people have to get abortions. It just so happens that I know someone who had several abortions because it was very dangerous to have children, but wanted to try to go through with it when she decided it would be her last try. And by chance she was born. Saying abortion is wrong is kind of like saying that any woman who can reproduce should, but any who can't and get pregnant desere to die because she is a defective human.

In addition, if you are a male, which I suspect, then you don't know some of the problems of the issue which I don't think you can understand.

Yes, I'm a guy, but You don't need to have cancer to know it's bad. And it's true an environment can affect who you are, but it's not the final word, but neither is genetics, to be fair. When i was saying An unborn casualty could be the next Einstien, i was tyring to say there is no way to determine how a child will turn out or that child's purpose in the world.

If a woman gets pregnant, she is automatically entrusted with a major responsibility: another human life. It doesn't matter if giving birth to that child poses possible risks to either the mother or the child, it's still her responsibility. God has allowed her to get pregnant, whether on purpose or not, and He will take care of their lives as well. 9and this was quoted from a girl )

[ConcreteAngel offline]

Abortion is infanticide! I'm a girl and I know how bad it is. People who abort often caannot have anymore children and the psychological experienced by the ex-mother is severe enough for her to commit suicide. For rape victims, there is such a thing as adoption, is there not?

[JesusFreak offline]

Yeah, there is. I think I'm gonna change my sig around with something about that...

[Gauntlet offline]

Yeah, there is. I think I'm gonna change my sig around with something about that...

...Please don't, or at the very least, refrain from using blunt terms on this topic outside of this thread. If anyone has dealt with a case of abortion, rape, or anything else related to infants (not necessarily themselves, but perhaps their siblings, relatives, or other close people), chances are, they're going to be avoiding this thread. I don't think they want to stumble upon "ABORTION=MURDER" outside of this thread.

[JesusFreak offline]

Yanno, Your right. *change*

[Overcaffeinated Sloth offline]

Unfortunately, JF, that kind of thing is not predetermine d through birth. Everthing, from gnetics to germs to bacteria to HAIR COLOR can determine how your life turns out. Steven Hawkings is just as smart as Einstein, and yet here it was she should've died years ago. Saying that someone who was aborted could've been the next Einstein or Beethoven could aslo mean that that person would be the next Hitler or Terrorist.

And some people have to get abortions. It just so happens that I know someone who had several abortions because it was very dangerous to have children, but wanted to try to go through with it when she decided it would be her last try. And by chance she was born. Saying abortion is wrong is kind of like saying that any woman who can reproduce should, but any who can't and get pregnant desere to die because she is a defective human.

In addition, if you are a male, which I suspect, then you don't know some of the problems of the issue which I don't think you can understand.

Yes, I'm a guy, but You don't need to have cancer to know it's bad. And it's true an environment can affect who you are, but it's not the final word, but neither is genetics, to be fair. When i was saying An unborn casualty could be the next Einstien, i was tyring to say there is no way to determine how a child will turn out or that child's purpose in the world.

If a woman gets pregnant, she is automatically entrusted with a major responsibility: another human life. It doesn't matter if giving birth to that child poses possible risks to either the mother or the child, it's still her responsibility. God has allowed her to get pregnant, whether on purpose or not, and He will take care of their lives as well. 9and this was quoted from a girl )

Fine then, so what is the male entrusted with? Logically, he should have someting too. Biologically, it's the other set of codes, so it's just as much his problem too, for if it weren't for him, there would be no need for an aborton in he first place.

I really hate people who say it's the woman's fault. The minute you do that, there's an unfair balance.

[JesusFreak offline]

What?! Neither I or The person I quoted meant it that way. The father's just as responsible for the mess the Mother's in, I agree with you on that. the Father is in charge of caring for the child and, if you wanna go all Nuclear family, earning the money needed for necessities like food.

[. offline]

Unfortunately, JF, that kind of thing is not predetermine d through birth. Everthing, from gnetics to germs to bacteria to HAIR COLOR can determine how your life turns out. Steven Hawkings is just as smart as Einstein, and yet here it was she should've died years ago. Saying that someone who was aborted could've been the next Einstein or Beethoven could aslo mean that that person would be the next Hitler or Terrorist.

And some people have to get abortions. It just so happens that I know someone who had several abortions because it was very dangerous to have children, but wanted to try to go through with it when she decided it would be her last try. And by chance she was born. Saying abortion is wrong is kind of like saying that any woman who can reproduce should, but any who can't and get pregnant desere to die because she is a defective human.

In addition, if you are a male, which I suspect, then you don't know some of the problems of the issue which I don't think you can understand.

Yes, I'm a guy, but You don't need to have cancer to know it's bad. And it's true an environment can affect who you are, but it's not the final word, but neither is genetics, to be fair. When i was saying An unborn casualty could be the next Einstien, i was tyring to say there is no way to determine how a child will turn out or that child's purpose in the world.

If a woman gets pregnant, she is automatically entrusted with a major responsibility: another human life. It doesn't matter if giving birth to that child poses possible risks to either the mother or the child, it's still her responsibility. God has allowed her to get pregnant, whether on purpose or not, and He will take care of their lives as well. 9and this was quoted from a girl )

Please do not sit there and tell me that a woman shoud go ahead and have a risky pregnancy. Are you that blinded by your religion you don't see the idoicy in that?

[JesusFreak offline]

"Am I That blinded by my religion.." is that how you see me? As some idealistic starry-eyed teen with his judgement impaired by a bypass from his brain to his heart? If anything, your non-religion blinds you from seeing a baby in the womb as nothing more than a mass of tissue.

people have responsibilities, whether they want them or not. These are either imposed on them by their society or their life-choices. All things worthdoing have their risks. You are/were a wrestler, correct? How do you get any sort of champoinship? Do you have to fight velvet dummies? Last time I checked, you have to fight peopl with just as much or more motivation than you who can beat you to a pulp.


Bringing a child into this world...any pregnancy is risky, but there are trained proffessionals who go through an extreme amounts of training to bring Mother and Baby together at the average Hospital, aren't there? Abortion is infanticide, no matter how much you veil it with words like Pro-Choice, reproductive Rights, and other euphanisms for baby-killing.



*looks up at post*
Maybe posting at night isn't the best idea...

[Mewberries151]

Guys, seriously, if you turn this thread into another (yes, another) war of beliefs thread, there is going to be some trouble. Please don't start ribbing at each other...both of you.

...And here I thought I'd be able to stay away from this thread. Ah, c'est la vie.

However...

JF, am I to understand that, according to you, a 13 year old girl who is raped by her father and gets pregnant, and whom the doctors say could possibly die if she were to try to give birth to the baby, is not only responsible for having that baby, but also totally to be shunned and blamed for it if she (or her parents, since she's underage) chooses to have an abortion?

Just as a note, I am not saying that this is how you feel, because it may or may not be...but it is the vibe you're giving off...and it's kind of...well, it's not very considerate at all for the poor innocent girl, is it? ^^;

If all of you could please, <i>try</i> to be more understanding (or at least not so 'quick to anger') in regards to the values of Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, that would be great, thanks.


And on that note. Who's to say that one can't be both Pro-Choice <u>and</u> Pro-Life? Seems to me that people confuse these issues and views far too often.

And on a further note:
Pro-Choice does not equal Infanticide. Pro-Choice is merely the belief that a woman should be able to have the right "to choose" whether or not to have an abortion. It does not mean that everyone is forced to have abortions as their only option in unwanted pregnancies, nor does it mean that anyone who has an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy is going to necessarily choose to have an abortion, just because their pro-Choice.

[Tangent128 offline]

You know, they need to work on better options than abortion. Like fetus transplants. Abortion should never have to seem necessary. (Also, danger to the mother's life is the only possible justification I can accept; if it comes down to a case of one surviving or both dying, what do you pick?)

[JesusFreak offline]

uh, this is why I never post around Midnight. My head's too tired to formulate an opinion after 9. okay, clean up time...

Ms. Berries, I never said the girl should be shunned. No matter what people's life choices are or have them do, God still loves them equally compared to Mahatma Gahndi. Sadly, we lived in a messed up world. The right thing may seem impossible to do or find out.



Furthermore, if that post seemed angry, It's because I just can't stand it when people think I'm in a little rose-colored fog cloud, ignoring the realities of life. So yeah.

[Mewberries151]

uh, this is why I never post around Midnight. My head's too tired to formulate an opinion after 9. okay, clean up time...

Ms. Berries, I never said the girl should be shunned. No matter what people's life choices are or have them do, God still loves them equally compared to Mahatma Gahndi. Sadly, we lived in a messed up world. The right thing may seem impossible to do or find out.

...

Please excuse me, but it seems as if you're going back on things you've not only said on other threads, but repeated several time over. *blinks* However, pointing most of them out would mean going off-topic, and this thread has taken quite a few unnecessary detours already since its creation.

However...

You said only a few posts before that Pro-Choice was not only wrong but tantamount to infanticide (which it is not, incidentally, as I noted in my earlier post as to what being "Pro-Choice" actually means), but that anyone who chose abortion was committing infanticide.

Now if the girl (or her guardians) chooses to have an abortion, thereby committing infanticide and murder, according to you, which goes against the 10 Commandments, within her own community and your Christian community, couldn't she be, if not definitively shunned, be at risk of being excluded from her peers and church, for a crime she had no part in other than to bare the pain of?

Also, on the flip side of things, if I am also to take you at your word from your earlier post, if the girl decides not to have the abortion, and both she and the child die in child-birth, isn't she not only then guilty of infanticide (for killing her baby by dying herself), but also now suicide because she chose not to protect herself from risk of death, yet another sin?

And in that way, couldn't the extreme Pro-Life supporters also be accused of being Pro-Suicide (as they support the mother going through with the birth regardless of whether it would mean putting herself at extreme risk of death)?

Granted, this is an exceedingly extreme view (and not one I hold, incidentally), but it only seems fair that if Pro-Choice supporters are going to labeled as supporters of infanticide, then Pro-Life supporters should be labeled as supporters of suicide.

Just throwing some light on the way that most people seem to have a very narrow view of either one or both sides, and like to "label" groups that they don't fully understand.

I am also trying to shed some perspective on the (granted extreme/worst case scenario, but still entirely plausible) ways in which some of these views (were they to be put into law), could effect the people they involve and the people around them.

You must think of every angle and viewpoint. Not just make a quick decision based entirely upon religious (or non-religious) and/or assumed facts/beliefs.

Furthermore, if that post seemed angry, It's because I just can't stand it when people think I'm in a little rose-colored fog cloud, ignoring the realities of life. So yeah.

Understood.

However...

I believe it was said either somewhere on this thread or on one similar to it, that this is not about how the "Church" feels, or how God (or his various other forms) feels, since God (last time I checked anyway), did not have an account here at LF. (...although that would be something... xD; ) This is about how "you" as an individual, as a human being, personally feel about abortion and whether or not it should be kept legal, or out-lawed.

Just something to keep in mind. ^^

[JesusFreak offline]

I'm going back on things Ive already said? Where?

I didn't say Pro-choice wasn't infanticide, I said It can be hard to see the the right thing to do.


Suicide is actively killing oneself. Taking a risky chance isn't suicide because The mother's intention wasn't to kill herself. Otherwise, People who trip and fall off bridges by accident comitted suicide too.


Yes, sadly, this girl would be at risk of being shunned, but people's opinions aren't worth a copy of Ishtar. It's the Big Guy's opinion that counts, not overly pious

spiritually unconcious holier-than-thou churchgoers.


If this girl had no say about the abortion, she is not the murdrere, the parents are and the girl is a victim.

[Mewberries151]

I'm going back on things Ive already said? Where?

I didn't say Pro-choice wasn't infanticide, I said It can be hard to see the the right thing to do.

You agreed that it was. Right after Zaruko-chan's post. But I digress...

Also, when the life of the mother is at stake and doctors have declared that there is a 99.9% chance that the baby won't be able to live even after a successful birth (due to the mother being to young to birth it), how are you so sure that having an abortion so that the mother's life can be spared and she can grow up to have either more kids when she's actually ready for them (assuming she's a rape victim), or even grow up to be the next "world-changer", as you also mentioned as a reason against abortion in your earlier posts. Why can't the mother be offered the same opportunity for "success"?

Suicide is actively killing oneself. Taking a risky chance isn't suicide because The mother's intention wasn't to kill herself. Otherwise, People who trip and fall off bridges by accident comitted suicide too.

Tripping is an accident. Choosing to not have an abortion would be a willingly made choice and therby no accident.

However, if you were to take that "accident" idea to an extreme, and this is a rather intriguing little loophole; If her pregnancy is an accident (let's say, through rape), then how is it infanticide, when having the baby was an accident to begin with? The mother didn't intentionally mean to get pregnant, after all.

...Again, just shedding some light on how grey (as opposed to cut and dry, black and white) this issue really is.

Yes, sadly, this girl would be at risk of being shunned, but people's opinions aren't worth a copy of Ishtar. It's the Big Guy's opinion that counts, not overly pious

spiritually unconcious holier-than-thou churchgoers.


If this girl had no say about the abortion, she is not the murdrere, the parents are and the girl is a victim.

But didn't you just say earlier that God was against infanticide and murder (which, abortion has been labeled as)?

And wouldn't it be all too easy for anyone to say that God feels "such and such" a way about abortions and justify themselves that way? Who's got the right one?

*blinks* But I digress from the topic at hand.

Just to swing this topic back around, I am both Pro-Choice, and Pro-Life. Let it be said again that you can be both. ^^

[JesusFreak offline]

In my post after Zaruko-chan's, i said I agreed it WAS infanticide

when the life of the mother is at stake and doctors have declared that there is a 99.9% chance that the baby won't be able to live even after a successful birth (due to the mother being to young to birth it), how are you so sure that having an abortion so that the mother's life can be spared and she can grow up to have either more kids when she's actually ready for them (assuming she's a rape victim), or even grow up to be the next "world-changer", as you also mentioned as a reason against abortion in your earlier posts. Why can't the mother be offered the same opportunity for "success"?

Well, being stillborn is another issue entirely, but it's all up to God on how he wants it to work out. there is still a .1 of a percent chance the baby will live. THe thing is, sometimes abortions damage the mother's, uh, reproductive capabilities so that she can no longer have any children anymore. I don't quite understand what you mean about sucess though. could you please have some pity on a sleepy debator and elaborate?.

Tripping is an accident. Choosing to not have an abortion would be a willingly made choice and therby no accident.

I didn't say an abortion was an accident. I said the mother dying from complications was an accident.

However, if you were to take that "accident" idea to an extreme, and this is a rather intriguing little loophole; If her pregnancy is an accident (let's say, through rape), then how is it infanticide, when having the baby was an accident to begin with? The mother didn't intentionally mean to get pregnant, after all.

The chocolate Chip cookie was an accident. Penicillen was an accident. not all things that come from accidents are negative, but this could be interpreted either way. killing a baby by accidentaly covereing his mouth with a blanket is accidentaly killing babies, not chopping it up into pieces, injecting extreme amounts of salt into the amniotic sac the baby is in, or killing the child as it comes through the birth canal.

But didn't you just say earlier that God was against infanticide and murder (which, abortion has been labeled as)?

And wouldn't it be all too easy for anyone to say that God feels "such and such" a way about abortions and justify themselves that way? Who's got the right one?

We don't know how God has dealt with someone's heart. What I was trying to warn against was automatically assuming this girl hasn't dealt with her baby's death. God has the right "one" if the right one is the truth. That's not to say We are not to confront someone about it, just not to criticize someone about it.

[. offline]

Never thought I'd see a day where I agreed mentally with Mew on anything. First for everything ya? Ahhh the irony is funny.

Hmmm I had no idea if I accidentaly fall off a bridge I'm going to get screwed over by God then. mMmMmMm yeah cause that makes about as much sense as anything else I suppose.

Yes JesusFreak you do come across blinded by your religion. But thats because you based on what you feel is right based off what a book says God says is right rather then your gut feeling. Hey, you asked.

[Gauntlet offline]

Hmmm I had no idea if I accidentaly fall off a bridge I'm going to get screwed over by God then. mMmMmMm yeah cause that makes about as much sense as anything else I suppose.

Read it over again. He didn't say that.

I'd really like to comment on the back-and-forth going on right now, but I've got a feeling it'd be like walking into a bear trap, so, pass.

[Mewberries151]

In my post after Zaruko-chan's, i said I agreed it WAS infanticide

Yes...which is exactly what I quoted you as saying several times in my posts. ^^;

when the life of the mother is at stake and doctors have declared that there is a 99.9% chance that the baby won't be able to live even after a successful birth (due to the mother being to young to birth it), how are you so sure that having an abortion so that the mother's life can be spared and she can grow up to have either more kids when she's actually ready for them (assuming she's a rape victim), or even grow up to be the next "world-changer", as you also mentioned as a reason against abortion in your earlier posts. Why can't the mother be offered the same opportunity for "success"?

Well, being stillborn is another issue entirely, but it's all up to God on how he wants it to work out. there is still a .1 of a percent chance the baby will live. THe thing is, sometimes abortions damage the mother's, uh, reproductive capabilities so that she can no longer have any children anymore. I don't quite understand what you mean about sucess though. could you please have some pity on a sleepy debator and elaborate?.

I'm not talking stillborn exclusively; there's lots of other problems like SIDS, vegetable-ism, and countless other medical problems that could end the baby's life prematurely.

As to what I mean by the mother being allowed the same chance of success as the child, I am referring to your earlier post that abortion was wrong because "everyone should have the right to life and the chance to become the next Beethoven, Einstein, etc.".

However, if everyone does indeed have the right, why can't the mother have it? Particularly in the case of a risky pregnancy, why can't the mother be extended the same right to life and a chance to become successful?

Tripping is an accident. Choosing to not have an abortion would be a willingly made choice and therby no accident.

I didn't say an abortion was an accident. I said the mother dying from complications was an accident.

You're misunderstanding (and misquoting) me. I said that the mother choosing <u>not</u> to have an abortion (and subsequently dying directly from it) cannot be counted as an "accident" because it was a willingly made choice with the possible consequences fully understood (just as one fully understands the consequences of jumping off a bridge).

Are you beginning to get where I'm going with this? ^^; More or less my point is that you can't label abortion infanticide without thus being able to label the choice to not have an abortion (and then dying from childbirth) suicide. It works both ways.

This is why labels, especially "generic" labels, are bad. *sweatdrops*

See what I mean? ^^

However, if you were to take that "accident" idea to an extreme, and this is a rather intriguing little loophole; If her pregnancy is an accident (let's say, through rape), then how is it infanticide, when having the baby was an accident to begin with? The mother didn't intentionally mean to get pregnant, after all.

The chocolate Chip cookie was an accident. Penicillen was an accident. not all things that come from accidents are negative, but this could be interpreted either way. killing a baby by accidentaly covereing his mouth with a blanket is accidentaly killing babies, not chopping it up into pieces, injecting extreme amounts of salt into the amniotic sac the baby is in, or killing the child as it comes through the birth canal.

Ah, but if the child itself was an accident to begin with, why, therefore, is anyone responsible for its death? If you want to get technical, shouldn't the father be the most at fault for giving it life in the first place, and thereby making it susceptible (and for those who follow that branch of philosophy, doomed) to death? Why is it the mother's fault? Why is it always the mother's fault?

But didn't you just say earlier that God was against infanticide and murder (which, abortion has been labeled as)?

And wouldn't it be all too easy for anyone to say that God feels "such and such" a way about abortions and justify themselves that way? Who's got the right one?

We don't know how God has dealt with someone's heart. What I was trying to warn against was automatically assuming this girl hasn't dealt with her baby's death. God has the right "one" if the right one is the truth. That's not to say We are not to confront someone about it, just not to criticize someone about it.

*blinks* I'm having trouble understanding the way you worded that, but you did say you were tired (and I know well how things can come out exceedingly strangely when one is tired ^^; ), so I shall try my best to see if I'm getting what you're saying.

What you're against is a woman choosing to have an abortion without first considering that it will mean taking (what may or may not be considered at the time) a life?

...Or am I way off?