Let's Talk Tech II - Over a year of Tech! :)

[TB3]

Now limit that to the human brain alone... I would be perfectly happy to simply not ever be devirtualized. Eliminate the excess, and we can reduce the requirements. Then again, what timeframe are you looking at the computer calculating it in? A matter of nanoseconds, hours, years?

By the way, I liked the poem.

The timeframe is about 5 seconds - the time the scanner ring takes to locate every atom in the body - and you can't trim the excess otherwise this would all be a lot easier

[YDV offline]

Woah o__O; Well of course the supercomputer is well in supply of Qubits.... (I guess this is a good and bad thing now...)

I also liked the poem. ^-^

Er... yes, yes, I agree with the thoughts on vehicles... even though I seem to remember covering this before, but whatever.

You're probably right with the gravity thing, though... it's a shame XANA can't be used for more... intellectual purposes. If you think about it he's a pretty powerful asset. Probably the only -thinking- AI on the planet... but he's the bad guy, we're not supposed to think about the positives. xD;

[mooshie offline]

I think he was more thinking about doing it at all, so probably a few hours, and it's not just the brain but a basic schematic of the body, so probably about 5% of the processing capacity of what TB3 posted, but which is still quite a lot, and in regards to TB3's post the two forces wouldn't tear one apart, but cancel out, and about the comments, does it have to be actual lyokologists or just longtime posters, or people who have contributed? and the thing is, is that todays supercomputers are just larger, more powerful versions of modern computers,whereas if quantum programing is applied to quantum computers their processing ability increases exponentially

[Jeremified offline]

Okay, mind if I expand the current topic? I haven't been very active in this topic lately.
Think about how re-materialization of the object's atoms would act- if it merely stored the atoms at the time of virtualization, then when you were re-materialized, your heart, brain, and all energy would be lost. Thus the energy of your body would have to be saved and restored somehow.

[TB3]

Okay, mind if I expand the current topic? I haven't been very active in this topic lately.
Think about how re-materialization of the object's atoms would act- if it merely stored the atoms at the time of virtualization, then when you were re-materialized, your heart, brain, and all energy would be lost. Thus the energy of your body would have to be saved and restored somehow.

That's were lovely Quantum comes in - on the Quantum scale, matter and energy are made of the same material, so any energy would be picked up and encoded, and subsequently reconstructed with the body.

PS: Matter/Energy duality is another take really on Particle/Wave duality - i.e. it can be proven that an electron is a wave, and it can also be proven that an electron is a particle? How can this work?

Quantum, that's how.

Always Quantum!

[Chupathingy 42 offline]

Ok, before I say any thing I want to... I will warn you, I'm fairly sick right now, so my mind is only working at 50% at best... so if I'm confusing, or start spouting things that have already been given as answers... PLEASE forgive me. I hope to be out of this Fog of a mindset in a short time.

OK on how the Vehicles work on lyoko. While it's easy to say "Antigravity" and the engines on the back, I think you guys are forgetting that while Lyoko IS a real world in its own right, it is also just a computer program. Now when I say this, please don't get me wrong, but... you can ALMOST relate Lyoko to the Ultimate 3d Game engine one can conceive of. I am not saying Lyoko is a game, but it functions similar to how one might. Take the Vehicles, They PROBABLY work (in my mind like this):

Unlike normal vehicles of the real world, the ones Jeremie created can be set to an entirely different law or reality when it comes to motion and gravity. In reality, they can be completely immune to them to some instances. How they would move would be biased off the Idea of moving (FAIRLY) freely in three diminutions, so instead of Forward/Reverse, Side-to-side/turning they can move up and down two. Now because the vehicles are objects of Lyoko (like the kids and monsters) when hit by a laser they are effected in a cretin way (the jarring). The reason for the exults system fro forward movement in the overboard and the rocket for "overdrive" (no pun intended) for the overbike is probably aesthetic as apposed to any thing else. It would actually be more like this: (taken from a 3d RTS game's code for ships in space. Game: Homeworld)

;Moving Around
;=-----------=
thruststrength[TRANS_UP] 875.0 ; acceleration (m/s^2) [1-1000 approx. range]
thruststrength[TRANS_DOWN] 875.0
thruststrength[TRANS_RIGHT] 700.0
thruststrength[TRANS_LEFT] 700.0
thruststrength[TRANS_FORWARD] 975.0
thruststrength[TRANS_BACK] 600.0
rotstrength[ROT_YAWLEFT] 140.0 ; rotational acceleration (deg/s^2) [0.01 - 400]
rotstrength[ROT_YAWRIGHT] 140.0 ; original = all 120.0
rotstrength[ROT_PITCHUP] 140.0
rotstrength[ROT_PITCHDOWN] 140.0
rotstrength[ROT_ROLLRIGHT] 180.0
rotstrength[ROT_ROLLLEFT] 180.0
turnspeed[TURN_YAW] 2.9 ; speed at which ship tries to turn (1=standard)
turnspeed[TURN_PITCH] 2.9 ; original = all 2.8
turnspeed[TURN_ROLL] 3.0

Again, that's a GENERAL idea of what it looks like in some games, but it gives you the idea. It would also have some general phical data that would give it the simulation of how it would be in a normal world: (again from homeworld)

;Ship Physics
;=----------=
mass 12.0 ; ship mass [fighter = 1]
momentOfInertiaX 10.0 ; resistance to rotation
momentOfInertiaY 10.0 ; [fighter = 1]
momentOfInertiaZ 8.0 ; 10.0
maxvelocity 800.0 ; [fighter = 1000]
maxrot 10.0 ; maximum rotation speed [don't make faster than ~10]

As you see, by combining these two things you tell the computer how the object would act when moving, hit (depending on the data for the weapon) and (if condition should apply) it were suppose to take a nose dive in to the ground. If nothing else makes me think, it's this and not "antigravity" very few time (if any) do I remember seeing a vehicle actually sink toward the ground with a loss of power (or even crash from loss of power for that matter). Best I've seen is when Odd crashed, and that was he lost control.

When I feel better, I'll try and talk some more on other things... Have fun guys.

[Rail Runner offline]

okay...taking your point...quantum seems to be that answer...but heres one...would quantum also explain why their body weight seems normal when they are on Lyoko like running and stuff, but yet they have the ability to jump higher than normal? just wondering.

[mooshie offline]

I'm pretty sure it's because of one of the four helixes in the vDNA, that also gives them the other abilties, such as triplicate, the visions, and telekenises, but I'm 100% sure

[Rail Runner offline]

good point mooshie..i wasnt quite thinking there...

now another thing I was wondering about..was when Aelita does her creative stuff..like the instant land formations...first she does that singing tone, then you see this grid appear, and whatever shape the grid has, the land takes...im always amazed at how that works...i know it would be similar to inputting info onto a computer..except that she does it with her mind...but i wonder how her tone thing works..like does that get her into a certain *zone* so to speak?...if this isnt clear, I will clarify in my next post..

or how Franz Hopper can help the team, without really helping the team...does he have some of the same virtual DNA like the others have when they are virtualized?

[Sithking Zero offline]

Actually, I've seen this sort of technique used before, both in anime and in real life.

As we have seen in "St. Valentines Day," Aelita does not necessarily need to sing to modify the terrain. My guess is that she merely uses her singing as a focus, or something to concentrate her powers with. You can see similar techniques in other animes such as G-gundam (with the blunt sword that can cut through anything) and in Avatar: The last Airbender (Aang using his staff to airbend).

Also, and I could be wrong, but without the Keys to Lyoko, I don't think she can modify the terrain, because the Keys, according to Franz Hopper, would allow the user of the Keys to controll Lyoko. This would explain how XANA is able to alter the terrain (tipping it on its side, splitting it apart, making it invisible.) I think that Aelita could have done these too, but she uses lifepoints when she uses her powers for simple reshaping of the land. In order to do what XANA does, she would need more lifepoints then she actually has.

[Rail Runner offline]

well...that explains that...yeah, I thought her singing was more of a concentration thing too...now what about the whole Franz Hopper situation..how was he able to get in contact with the team, and do all of those things that he did, being that he was virtualized, did he receive automatically VDNA?...and is that is whats giving him his abilities so to speak?

[TB3]

Little extarct from the essay

---

THE HOPPER EQUATION
The road which led to Lyoko began like most great discoveries, in a very small way. Socrates sat in a bath, Newton got hit with an apple, and Einstein, Dirac and Franz Hopper wrote equations.

Quite when the Hopper Equation was first written is unknown, but it occurred some time before 1974. It’s proponent, Franz Hopper, was a little-known Quantum Physicist who had a brainwave regarding the origins of the universe.

Hopper’s notion, which the equation expressed mathematically, was that when the Big Bang occurred at the birth of the universe the scattered energy and matter were fractured into three quantum states, which overlap each other.

ONE – Normal Space, or reality as we know it.
TWO – Anti-Space, a counter-reality comprised of antimatter
THREE – The interlying Quantum Vacuum, which Hopper dubbed ‘Zero-Point-Space’

The relevance of the equation was that Franz had delivered an answer to many of the questions sought by science for years (such as “Dirac’s equation proves there is equal antimatter and normal matter in the universe, so why can’t we find any antimatter?â€

[Rail Runner offline]

cool...very nice TB3..

[TB3]

cool...very nice TB3..

Thanks - oh as a little extra I made this a while ago as a sample of my diagrams - you might have seen it before.



That took an entire day to make!

[Rail Runner offline]

I havent seen that before at all...the detail is amazing dude...wow.

[TB3]

Here comes even more stuff fresh off the press. Feedback would be awesome!

-----------

ZERO-POINT-SPACE
Though Franz had ‘discovered’ Zero-Point-Space as an independent scientist, it was only under Project Carthage that he was able to quantify it’s existence and define it. Here in condensed form are his findings.

The universe exists in three interlying states – Normal-Space, Anti-Space and Zero-Point-Space.

Direct contact between Normal and Anti-Space is impossible, as this would result in the instant annihilation of both – however contact can be made from Zero-Point-Space into either, and this occurs both in nature under rare conditions and in certain experiments.

Zero-Point-Space (ZPS) exists within the Quantum Vacuum – an area of virtual particles that fills all space.

ZPS is equal in size and volume to Normal Space

The infinite energy of ZPS drives many of the unexplainable energy phenomena of our universe, such as Zero-Point-Energy, Gravity, Universal Expansion and Tachyons.

ZPS is filled with energy in the form of a new virtual particle – dubbed a ‘Lyokon’

The Lyokon is the building block from which quarks and muons are formed. These virtual particles fuse to form electrons, protons and neutrons, which in turn fuse to form atoms and subsequently matter. Therefore the Lyokon particle is the fabric of all energy and matter – in short, the fabric of the universe.

Lyokons align themselves based on quantum disturbances from both Anti-Space and Normal-Space. As such, Quantum fields from our reality can be used to detect, direct and control Lyokons.

Contact between ZPS and Normal-Space occur in high-energy reactions, such as the nuclear fusion that powers the sun. These reactions displace Lyokons in ZPS, which in turn emerge into our space, fused as virtual particles.

Contact can also be made through the ‘Zero-Point-Energy’ experiment devised by BG Casimir, hence the name of ‘Zero-Point-Space’.

In theory, ‘Casimir Engines’ could be built to exchange matter for Lyokons, and Quantum fields used to control the form these Lyokons are extracted in, such as electrons, or complete atoms.

----------

Too complex? Or too short? Give your thoughts please!

[Rail Runner offline]

I found it to be of perfect length...and it was understandable..

[Tangent128 offline]

My take on the vehicles:
-I doubt either the vehicles or monsters could be just programs, since I doubt Jeremie or XANA would willingly program destructability (or any other inconvienent physical laws) into their creations.
-I think Jeremie materializes them the same way I think XANA sends monsters- by accessing the materialization program, but feeding it computer-generated particle data instead of a scanner feed.
-Thus, both the vehicles and monsters actually started as real-world schematics.
-Since Quantum data can't be duplicated, each monster/vehicle would have to have its particle data recalculated from the schematics each time it was materialized.
-This would explain Jeremie's occasional inability to materialize vehicles due to "lack of system resources"; he does not have access to enough resources to recalculate the data at that time. In the same way, XANA can't cover every square inch of Lyoko with monsters; it can only calculate the data so fast, so it has to save its calculated monsters for the occasional mass army.
-However, it would appear that the vehicles' control logic is implemented by software. (Based on Jeremy's comment before Odd crashed the Overboard while testing it.) Perhaps they're linked to the control program in the same way Aelita remained possessed by XANA in "St. Valentine's Day"? It may be that the vehicles are given some sort of hovering vDNA as well, since we aren't given any indication that Jeremie figured out XANA's Theory Of Everything.
-Materializing vehicles into the real world should be possible then, if Jeremie figures out XANA's TOE; vDNA obviously doesn't work in reality.

Problems:
-Since the Towers are more or less programs, it shouldn't be possible to damage them, much less shut them down, with a Megatank or anything else by this theory.
-Jeremie can materialize the vehicles in Carthage just fine, but can't virtualize people there.

Other Notes:
-I imagine Jeremie and XANA would both be frusterated by the fact that, after having to calculate the vehicle/monster atom by atom, the vast majority of that data is stripped out by the materialization program and replaced with an avatar.
-Does anyone have any suggestion as to how long the calculations would take?

[Rail Runner offline]

when you ask how long the calculation should take, are you talking in jeremie's world..or for us to figure out how long that process should take..

if you are talking about how long it would take us to figure all this out...probably quite a while

if you are talking about jeremie's computer world time...then maybe minutes...depending on what happens I guess....

sorry if I didnt understand that correctly..

[TB3]

Hmm - nice work tangent.

One thought I have is that the monsters are programs, but XANA didn't lay down the programs which they are based on and which grants them vulnerability.

I think Franz designed the two monsters which probably came first - the Mantas and Creepers, and then XANA began making his own, building on the same software.

BTW: Chupathing42 suugested that XANA created Gravitons in Zero-Gravity-Zone and used those to offset gravity. Since this lines up with what I just wrote about ZPS I think he's a bloody genius! Anyone object to making him a Lyokologist?

[Rail Runner offline]

I have no objections....seeing as how I am not as smart as he is hahaha.

and yeah, he may have a point there...ok..now question..why did Franz create the mantas and creepers...if Xana is using them as his own...or did he overtake them at some point?

and if Xana would have laid down the bases for the monsters...would they then be invulnerable?....or would they still have the same weaknesses?

[Chupathingy 42 offline]

It's not a case that they would program things like that in; it's just how it is.

Lyoko is a world with a set of laws of it's own, and if you want to put ANYTHING there, person, monster, vehicle, weapon, or anything else in, you have to follow cretin rules of the why you make it (when you make the code that runs it.

Again going back to my game engine analogue, Lyoko would see these things as under these categories: (note this is mostly on the spot… and I will try and make a better formatted one soon, hopefully before TB3 leaves if it’s liked)

Character: the Gang as we know them
Monster: Xana’s monster
Weapons: these ate the weapons of the gang and maybe monsters
Vehicles: self-explanatory

Ok where is more in-depth

Characters: This being the gang has cretin things in them, both for making them look and move like the person, as well as how they should act on lyoko when they move, as well as how much damage they can take before they devitalize. This also includes links to there powers

Monsters: Probably thing on lyoko that has either a basic AI or that can be controlled directly by XANA, Franz and who knows maybe Jeremie some day. This Includes Max damage, any specials like the armor of a mega tank, and all the basic data for the physical make up for them

Weapons: this contains all the data that tell how a weapon will work, whether it’s a melee like a sword, or a thrown weapon like a fan, or a projectile like a laser or an Arrow. Each weapon type has its own data, including ammo, re-fire delay, strength, accuracy and if a physical weapon like sword or fan, its defense ability

Vehicles: these are objects that can move, have hit points, and a physical mass. This take an additional abundant of processing power as it has a self governing program for each that links it to the pilot as well as a self correcting telemetry and guidance system.

Now, again, the Hit point is not something that is programmed in, is a law of the coding that you have to include it, or it will give you a general one. Now, it’s more likely that the hit point might be given automatically by the system biased on cretin criteria on the person, monster or object (vehicle) that is being made.

Fact is, they are just programs... very complex programs… but still programs

As to materializing, them on lyoko… that could be actually loading the program and making it much like the marabonta... or it could be just as simple as load program “overboardâ€

[Rail Runner offline]

good post chupathingy, and it definitely helps things to be understood alot easier.

[mooshie offline]

not to sound like a stick in the mud or anything, zero-point space is still very possible but the reason we can't find and anti-matter is because anti-neutrinos and neutrinoes are exactly the same so antimater for the most part annihilated with matter and what didn't annihilate were the neutrinos which were creating in great abundance leaving a great deal of regular matter, again if I'm going to far into actual science that isn't favorable to the theory feel fre to tell me to piss off

[TB3]

If you were right Mooshie then nothing would be left in the universe but neutrinos - everything else would annihilate.