LTT3 - Rewriting Physics since 2005!

[jaimehlers offline]

The revelation of the Network has opened up new possibilities in our understanding of Lyoko's history - for example, we know Project Carthage wanted to somehow 'block enemy communications' - what if that was be achieved through the Network (along with more...destructive capacities - imagine being able to casually enter the Kremlin's isolated network and tell all those pesky ICBMs to fall straight back onto their silos should someone in Moscow decide to actually use those big red keys that make things go BOOM!), and the same can possibly be said for how XANA was meant to fulfil his purpose in 'destroying Carthage'.

Thoughts?

That's a very interesting idea. Especially if damaging the buildings in the network also damages the computers they're based on (ala fragmenting them or something like that). And yeah, if XANA is actually trying to take out Carthage, then he would need to have his own base(s) of operation - namely, the Replikas.

[Sithking Zero offline]

I don't know if everyone's familiar with the ring-shaped constructs known as "Halos" in the game "Halo."

They are special, planet-sized stations that are capable of launching a massive energy wave able to annihilate all organic matter in the galaxy.

What if Project Carthage had a similar function, as a last-ditch kind of thing? Sure, I believe that the primary purpose was to hack into specific systems, but can anyone imagine the kind of power that would be achieved by France if that was accomplished?

Imagine: France is alone in the world. Everyone is against it. What to do? Activate Project Carthage! A massive energy wave warps through ZPS, annihilating the digital "City" that represents computers. They stop working worldwide, and France is now the most technologically advanced nation on earth.

Or, again, going back to the very roots of LTT, Another theory presents itself.

Commandos in the Digital Sea.

Think about it. Franz Hopper and the rest of Project Carthage finish the project and add scanners. This in and of itself is amazing. Now, picture if Franz got his OWN version of the Skidbladnir working. With commandos (or drones/monsters under the operator's control) they could infiltrate the enemy network for bombing and infiltration missions.

What better use of the scanners? You know, aside from "Free energy and supplies forever."

[Tangent128 offline]

I'm back! From Hawai'i and a 1.5 hr CL marathon.

Okay... rethinking of Lyoko? I'm in. From what TB3 said, and my own thoughts, here's how I understand it:
The SC's amazing computing power doesn't come from its own hardware. Rather, the SC serves as a powerful ZPS-manipulation device, capable of projecting virtual circuits to build a computer in ZPS as big as needed, provided it has enough power to maintain the projection; ZPS-side Lyokons are probably not very stable. These circuits are likely located within the walls of Sector 5, and possibly the Towers. These walls originally served as protection from ZPS disturbances, before Hopper reworked the system, and now double as architectural features. (The protection factor was likely beefed up as well, to protect from non-natural threats.) The SC just has enough computing power to stablize and manipulate Lyoko; ZPS physics (which trickle in in a diluted form from "reality") actually run it. The SC also serves as a non-volitile data store.

I have an idea on how spectres work, but I'll wait 'till I can illustrate it.

[TB3]

I'm back! From Hawai'i and a 1.5 hr CL marathon.

Okay... rethinking of Lyoko? I'm in. From what TB3 said, and my own thoughts, here's how I understand it:
The SC's amazing computing power doesn't come from its own hardware. Rather, the SC serves as a powerful ZPS-manipulation device, capable of projecting virtual circuits to build a computer in ZPS as big as needed, provided it has enough power to maintain the projection;

Not quite - the hardware is partly responsible, as the advanced-tech inherant allows the Supercomputer to interface with it's Qubits or 'Quantum Ghosts' in ZPS. Actually operating virtual circuits would be more complicated than building them possibly because the supercomputer would still have to maintain them.

ZPS-Side Lyokons are probably not very stable. These circuits are likely located within the walls of Sector 5, and possibly the Towers. These walls originally served as protection from ZPS disturbances, before Hopper reworked the system, and now double as architectural features. (The protection factor was likely beefed up as well, to protect from non-natural threats.)

Well we now know that Carthage is sort of Lyoko's...'distribution centre' as it were - where incoming data from the supercomputer is divided up and so-on - it's not a processing centre as such, although it does do a LOT of data-handling.

The towers serve as...erm...modems I guess - they're the interfaces with reality, and one functiuon we can ascribe to them is translating incoming binary code into the mulit-digit code the computer operates on, and vice-versa (we always see the tower screens writing in ones and zeroes, but the rest of Lyoko's code writing in every digit).

The SC just has enough computing power to stablize and manipulate Lyoko; ZPS physics (which trickle in in a diluted form from "reality") actually run it. The SC also serves as a non-volitile data store.

Again, sorta, but not quite - ZPS physics POWER the supercomputer, and allow Lyoko to exist, but all the processing and operations are carried out in the supercomputer we believe - but if you can give some evidence then yeah, cool

I have an idea on how spectres work, but I'll wait 'till I can illustrate it.

Look forward to hearing it - remember to consider both our old and new theories though.

[reddingo_213 offline]

OK, so from what I've read from this forum, only their minds get into Lyoko, right? What would have happened if two people go into the same tube? Would you think that they'll both appear as their own person's, or as the same one?
Oh, and sorry for ruining your thoughts previous up. This kinda, sorta, bugged me for a bit when i saw the episode when Yumi got tricked into thinking that she has dog dna in her. Can't remember if it was dna or something else, and the name of the episode, oh well.....again, sorry!

[Sithking Zero offline]

You know, I've been wondering the same thing. What WOULD happen?

[Tangent128 offline]

Not quite - the hardware is partly responsible, as the advanced-tech inherant allows the Supercomputer to interface with it's Qubits or 'Quantum Ghosts' in ZPS. Actually operating virtual circuits would be more complicated than building them possibly because the supercomputer would still have to maintain them.

Well, yes, the SC certainly has incredible computing power by itself, but because a Lyoko-in-ZPS theory would imply somewhat reality-esqe ZPS physics, I can't see any issue with operating circuits in ZPS, as long as you can keep them from disintegrating- if your system operates on Lyokons, then you just need to keep them from escaping. An important advantage to ZPS circuits is their easy modifyability- its seems to make more sense to me that the SC could reconfigure its ZPS circuits when it figures out how to detect another Qubit, than that the SC can modify its own quantum dots.

Well we now know that Carthage is sort of Lyoko's...'distribution centre' as it were - where incoming data from the supercomputer is divided up and so-on - it's not a processing centre as such, although it does do a LOT of data-handling.

The towers serve as...erm...modems I guess - they're the interfaces with reality, and one functiuon we can ascribe to them is translating incoming binary code into the mulit-digit code the computer operates on, and vice-versa (we always see the tower screens writing in ones and zeroes, but the rest of Lyoko's code writing in every digit).

It doesn't seem like a far leap from data-handling to data-hashing, but I'm starting to like the idea of vesting more of the computing power in the Towers- they do act a lot like sub-computers, given that we've seen them store data, perform cryptanalysis, guide spectres, etc.

Again, sorta, but not quite - ZPS physics POWER the supercomputer, and allow Lyoko to exist, but all the processing and operations are carried out in the supercomputer we believe - but if you can give some evidence then yeah, cool

Well, the main piece of evidence is circumstantial, but the fact that a world meant as a refuge gives everybody an HP meter would imply to me that Hopper was operating more under physical constraints than mathematical ones.

Look forward to hearing [spectre theory] - remember to consider both our old and new theories though.

Funny story, that- I realized that spectres didn't need much changing at all. You could send the spectre through ZPS (remember, Jeremie's Tip-Top-Shape explanation mentioned the Network), but sending the SAP still works fine.

I did end up illustrating the "canonical" spectre explanation, though-

[Kamekai offline]

it could have been a combination of both restraints? but when you say it like that, wouldn't an energy meter be sure to follow too? or is that what you mean by HP meter?

the picture needs to be a little bit slower, it took me a few times to see what was really going on

[Malkmusian offline]

Hey, Rhys. If both people get devirtualized at the same time, do they end up in the same tube or not. What happens if you and another person are in the same tube? Does your DNA combine with theirs?

[Kamekai offline]

yeah, a good Xana attack could be to devirtualize all four of the team at once, screwing everything up.

[Malkmusian offline]

It'd would, as in replying to kamekai.

[reddingo_213 offline]

but would they have the same mind when they get to Lyoko. or would they have separate minds and be constantly fighting to see who has the control?

[Kamekai offline]

maybe since the scanners scan for subconscious minds, it would create a person that has the attributes of both people, and i.e:

if one really hates tacos, and the other really likes them, then the combined subconscious would have an unbiased view of tacos.

(man, you gotta love those tacos!)

[Astro-Xana offline]

Hey, Rhys. If both people get devirtualized at the same time, do they end up in the same tube or not. What happens if you and another person are in the same tube? Does your DNA combine with theirs?

I remember asking the same exact question a long time ago right here:

http://codexana.net/lyokofreak/forum/vi ... &start=196

This is a question I had regarding the new episode of Season 4 titled "KiwiOdd" which was that I thought that if Odd and Kiwi got in the same scanner (which is something that almost happened in "Xana Awakens") that Odd would be fused with Kiwi. But anyway, there are some answers to that question I made long ago.

[TB3]

This is a question I had regarding the new episode of Season 4 titled "KiwiOdd" which was that I thought that if Odd and Kiwi got in the same scanner (which is something that almost happened in "Xana Awakens") that Odd would be fused with Kiwi. But anyway, there are some answers to that question I made long ago.

(taps foot) - when was there ever an episode called KiwiOdd in Season 4?

Regarding the scanners - I honestly doubt they would merge two persons or animals in that manner, because they are not building a body from DNA (this isn't 'The Fly') - they are instead building molecular constructs from stored data - two bodies merging would be very messy and nasty, not a neat 'boy with tail, dog-ears and fur' amalgam - an example would be this image from the old Transformer comics, and unlike robots, I doubt a human would survive such a situation.

Now, we know that when a person is transferred to Lyoko, they are scanned - but often we neglect to remember that what is scanned is not just a person - it is also their clothing, their accesories, fillings and pacemakers if necessary, and also millions/billions of bacteria living on and in the body.

If the scanners/supercomputers are advanced enough to seperate the core human data from all these other biological elements, then I assume it can distinguish between two people in a single scanner, and safely keep them seperate in the transfer to Lyoko.

Also remember that the scanners have safety systems built in, and Jeremie is smart enough and familiar enough with the sequence by now to recognise an error during the 'scan' phase and stop the sequence before the 'virtualisation' step.

[Taelia offline]

I agree with that. Kiwi was about to be sent in, though. And Sissi was going to be, but she said no.

[reddingo_213 offline]

This is a question I had regarding the new episode of Season 4 titled "KiwiOdd" which was that I thought that if Odd and Kiwi got in the same scanner (which is something that almost happened in "Xana Awakens") that Odd would be fused with Kiwi. But anyway, there are some answers to that question I made long ago.

(taps foot) - when was there ever an episode called KiwiOdd in Season 4?

Regarding the scanners - I honestly doubt they would merge two persons or animals in that manner, because they are not building a body from DNA (this isn't 'The Fly') - they are instead building molecular constructs from stored data - two bodies merging would be very messy and nasty, not a neat 'boy with tail, dog-ears and fur' amalgam - an example would be this image from the old Transformer comics, and unlike robots, I doubt a human would survive such a situation.

Now, we know that when a person is transferred to Lyoko, they are scanned - but often we neglect to remember that what is scanned is not just a person - it is also their clothing, their accesories, fillings and pacemakers if necessary, and also millions/billions of bacteria living on and in the body.

If the scanners/supercomputers are advanced enough to seperate the core human data from all these other biological elements, then I assume it can distinguish between two people in a single scanner, and safely keep them seperate in the transfer to Lyoko.

Also remember that the scanners have safety systems built in, and Jeremie is smart enough and familiar enough with the sequence by now to recognise an error during the 'scan' phase and stop the sequence before the 'virtualisation' step.

thank you. That kinda, actually made sense to me. But the pic kinda freaked me out a bit. Really nasty. But you said that if the supercomputer was advanced enough...and what if Jeremie wasn't there to help out? (starts going into a fantasy rush) What if it was X.A.N.A was the one that forced the Lyoko warriors into the tubes? And then it was some sort of way to keep them...what's the word?...occupied with trying to fix what has happened because he, X.A.N.A, sabotaged the safety system? And then what would happen? (coming out now, gets senses together) Huh, maybe I should post this in another forum too...

[jaimehlers offline]

Well, I can't say how the scanners are designed, but I know that if I were designing them, I'd have about a million and one safeguards to prevent scanned data from mixing like that. And obviously the scanners do have some pretty powerful safeguards, not to mention that when they put a person back, they bring him or her back with all their original possessions. Can you imagine how bad it would be if the scanners didn't virtualize, say, the bacteria that normally exist in the human body? A lot of those are beneficial to humans, and it would be rather harmful if they were left out. Or what if it somehow missed their mitochondria?

I think the fact that the only scanning error mentioned in the series did nothing more than switch Odd's and Yumi's bodies implies that the scanners do have some pretty formidable safeguards to prevent just the sort of errors mentioned here. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what happened, since I didn't see the entire episode, so all I know is that there was a bug in the rematerialization program.

[Kamekai offline]

maybe everything's configured by the time they are coming back to the scanners. So if a DNA strand is missing that was there when they were being virtualized, then they won't come through.
But then again, you know what they say about a program that's been copied to many times...

[TB3]

maybe everything's configured by the time they are coming back to the scanners. So if a DNA strand is missing that was there when they were being virtualized, then they won't come through.
But then again, you know what they say about a program that's been copied to many times...

The problem is that DNA doesn't work like that - the scanners can't rely on DNA to bring a person back (because DNA doesn't record every feature of your body, just the 'potential' for your body - your DNA really doesn't change from conception to death), and you can't 'loose' a DNA strand since it's encoded in every cell of your body.

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Speaking of bodies, last night's ep may have solved an old LTT debate, in that we know now the kids probably exist only as 'sentient wireframes' on Lyoko - they can't have internal organs and what-not if Yumi was able able to accidently decapitate Odd as that screen implied she had.

[Kamekai offline]

yeah, I just meant to prevent cancer and whatnot. The actual body is a whole 'nother thing.

[Jazzy Josh offline]

Well, cancer in and of itself is just Body cells multiplying at a very rapid rate due to a change in their DNA. One base pair edited could cause Cancer. Thinking of how many body cells you have many of your cells already have changes in their base pairs, thankfully, most of your DNA doesn't do anything.

This also brings up a question. [size=1](I can't believe I just typed "This also brings up a cancer".)[size=1] No, the SC doesn't completely rely on DNA. But it has to at least partially use it, Heck, it's two of the four vDNA helices (Correct spelling actually, FF is yelling at me ), if I'm not wrong. For example, we see Jeremie's ankle healed in False Start/Code Earth. I believe that the scanners would notice that if cells weren't in the correct place, it would correct the problem, adding more cells that were already specialized for that area, weather it be muscle, bone, lung, etc. tissue. Ths if cancer was the issue, could the SC not either automatically, or preferably manually (just to have confirmation) destroy and replace or repair and destroy unnecessary tissue to correct this? Or would major life threatening conditions be too complex for the SC

Feel free to shoot me down, I don't even know if I'm thinking straight. >.> <.< ()_()

[Kamekai offline]

my point, exactly. well, some of it anyway. I think the SC can handle it.

[TB3]

This also brings up a question. [size=1](I can't believe I just typed "This also brings up a cancer".)[size=1] No, the SC doesn't completely rely on DNA. But it has to at least partially use it, Heck, it's two of the four vDNA helices (Correct spelling actually, FF is yelling at me ), if I'm not wrong. For example, we see Jeremie's ankle healed in False Start/Code Earth. I believe that the scanners would notice that if cells weren't in the correct place, it would correct the problem, adding more cells that were already specialized for that area, weather it be muscle, bone, lung, etc. tissue. Ths if cancer was the issue, could the SC not either automatically, or preferably manually (just to have confirmation) destroy and replace or repair and destroy unnecessary tissue to correct this? Or would major life threatening conditions be too complex for the SC

Feel free to shoot me down, I don't even know if I'm thinking straight. >.> <.< ()_()

In time, with correct development, then yes the Supercomputer and Scanners could be used to heal diseases (although it would probably be debated more than stem-cell research).

However, I honestly don't think Franz had the medical know-how to program such a function into it, and it would be extremely risky to leave such a function automatically up to the supercomp.

The simplest way for the supercomputer to heal someone as we have seen (also note that Yumi didn't have all those bruises she had midway through yesterday's episode when she came back from Lyoko) is just to switch to a back-up copy of the person's data - I'd imagine the supercomputer saves the last one or two scans per person to memory in order to have a backup of their data should stuff go wrong - thus to heal an injury (like Yumi's bruises or Jeremie's ankle), it's a simple matter for the supercomputer to reconstruct the body using their last saved back-up and merge it with their latest mental data - although, it would be doubly impressive if Odd had given it those instructions on his own inititive when he scanned her in (unlikely maybe, but hey - he's a computer whizz ).

As an afterthought, Jeremie probably scans himself once or twice a week in order to have an up-to-date record of his molecular data and in order to heal himself after all the punishment XANA gives him (I MEAN YESTERDAY HE GOT FREAKING ELECTROCUTED! )

Now, just to support the theory of using the scanners to heal someone, we have seen them be used to alter a person's structure on several occasions (turning Aelita invisible for example - note to self: check that episode out again for clarification) - however it goes all the more to show why screwing with the molecular structure is dangerous.

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On the subject of vDNA, nicely remembered btw - it seems vDNA is possibly what everything on Lyoko is encoded in (we often seem to see a vDNA strand on the screen even when no-one's on Lyoko) - it's an encryption and data storage process, not a biological mechanism. This is also in keeping with the field of 'DNA Computing', using DNA to store data, except Franz took it to the virtual level, increased the number of helixes and had a working prototype in place in 1994, the same year that the rest of the world cottoned onto the concept of using DNA as a data-storage-medium.

NB:

I'd like to clarify for everyone quickly why the scanners probably don't use a person's DNA strand to build a body.

Let's say I got scanned and my DNA is then used to rebuild me - the supercomputer would need to basically need to start by simulating me as a fetus at the moment of conception and then model my entire molecular development through 20 years of life (a laborious proceedure) - and even then there are massive other factors which need to be taken into consideration which DNA does not play a role in - I'm overweight for example, or I had a haircut yesterday, and I have a cut healing on my nose where my cat attacked me yesterday (actually happened) - all of these are part of my body and need to be replicated, but are not encoded in my DNA - the only way the supercomputer could build a fully accurate model of me from my DNA would be if it also had a record of every external factor that has affected me in my life, and could somehow interpret that into how they altered my body's development.

Taking all this into consideration, it seems more likely that the scanners simply scan your entire molecular data and store that data in vDNA (Digital DNA) format.

NNB:

Our knowledge of the Network now also has a new bearing on this discovery in that the supercomputer might actually simulate vDNA in the virtual particles that make up the network (though that does seem unlikely as it makes it easier to loose or alter data).

NNNB:

What we do know about the Network is that it makes scanner operations much more simple - previously we'd had to have the scanners build a person slice-by-slice using a complex system of nanotubes to align virtual particles. But now 'William Returns' has shown that those particles align by themselves when Molecular data is projected into them, so the scanners during a materialization only need to send a person's molecular data (and possibly an air-pocket around them) into the area of the Network that overlaps the scanner's physical location, and then once a new body is formed from the virtual particle sea, create a ZPS Portal to bring them back. VIOLA! One living, breathing (but very sore) teenager, fresh back from the brink of infinity.

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Please, please, please guys - debate all I've said above - if you find a mistake, make me crash and burn so we can perfect our ideas in light of the revalation of The Network!

[Tangent128 offline]

Looks good to me...
Would the area of the Network overlapping the scanners be the same as that area Jeremie was trapped in in that 1st season episode? That episode also provides circumstancial evidence for the instability of real particles in ZPS- Jeremie was begining to be slowly "deleted", which could be corrosion by virtual particles- the SC forgot about Jeremie's existence ("the Supercomputer thinks he's an outdated file"), and thus didn't project his molecular data.

So... that would make the Virtualization process:
Transfer Odd- load Odd's Avatar, prep scanners, etc.
Scanner Odd- lift Odd's body into ZPS, scan molecular data for rematerialization later.
Virtualization!- separate Odd's mind from his body (Ulrich's misadventure shows that to be possible in Code: Lyoko physics) and incorporate it into the building of his Avatar. His real body is floating lifeless in ZPS, and may be erased to clear the scanner space.

...which also explains what went wrong during the first Sector 5 virtualization test. Ulrich's mind was separated from his body (which was erased), but not integrated with his Avatar. His Avatar was built, but another glitch misplaced it. Ulrich's mind was left in ZPS overlapping the Scanner, and came back to Earth when the Scanner powered down.

One question- where in the Network is Lyoko relative to the SC's physical location, and is it a 1:1 scale?

There are likely problems with this post. Let me know what you take issue with.
Why do we always use Odd in examples?