Let's Talk Tech II - Over a year of Tech! :)

[YDV offline]

I likes it! And it makes a lot of sense, too. Good job! ^^

But if XANA didn't take any of her secondary memories, wouldn't she still know who her father is? Or maybe she doesn't know that he's her father but still knows who he is and maybe that's why she was able to identify him in Deja Vu... hmm...


And another thing only related by the word "memory", I doubt it was actual human memories which the Scyphozoa stole that caused Aelita to die, but like actual computer memory. 'Cause I doubt if you got rid of all your computer's memory and stuff it really wouldn't work anymore ^^; Just me givin' two cents! :O

But... Aelita -is- a human. And yes, technically the Schyphozoa did steal her memories as computer data (The consciousness/"mind" is converted into vDNA and re-animated/simulated... because having a mass of energy just like. Sitting there. Wouldn't work. xD) I'm pretty sure we had a theory on "why" she died, but I just... don't remember it right now. xD;

Um... About that secondary memory stuff.... there's actually something called "instinct" that's inherent in all human beings, so things like how to walk and talk would be part of that and separate from secondary memories. And the plausibility of that is a little flimsy. It's like the disproven idea that physical traits learned/developed by the parents would be passed on to the children. (ex a la Biology class: The dad who worked out a lot didn't have a baby with beefy arms) If that were true, then just because your Uncle Joe was in the NSA and knew how to hack into Russian spy satellites doesn't mean you do.

[Tom Bone offline]

Can I be a Lyokologist? *puppydog eyes*

[YDV offline]

No, you may not.

[TB3]

Sorry Tom but YDV's right - you need to make a few contributions before you can become part of the group but you're still welcome around any of the threads!

On that note, no-one objects to Cassius so shall we knight him?

[animenologist offline]

Wow, I've been gone for a long time. Not only did I miss the finishing of the first LTT (and the after-party), I'm behind by 6 pages. Time to get back into the swing of things.

About motion sickness that was brought up earlier, motion sickness is caused due to a contradiction between your normal perception and a swirling of fluid in the endolymph, which is found in the ear. The endolymph is used as an extra measure to determine balance. Basically, you normally percieve motion through a sense of sight, and possibly touch or hearing. What happens with Odd is that while in the sphere, his sense of sight sees no form of motion, but something acting as the endolymph, is sensing motion. This contradiction between the senses will then give Odd a feeling of nausea. It's also th reason he doesn't feel sickness while performing those flips and feats of acrobatics, since his normal senses are still able to percieve motion.

I've actually wondered how deep the creation of the virtual body is. Originally, we believed that an avatar only had a perception of sight and smell since that it was what stated by Jeremie. But we realized that was incorrect since there is a sense of touch (and the somatic senses in general), atleast to some degree since they had sensation of pain and pressure shown through various episodes. That would mean that there is a fairly wide-spread neural system spread throughout the body. With endolymph suggested in the body as well, that would mean there is virtual fluid running through the body or atleast something to simulate it, which is not to hard to imagine since there is virtual water, shown in Temptation and Vertigo. Its quite possible that they may have a sense of taste and smell as well, but the computer has not been able to simulate smell and taste, and you can't smell or taste, if there is nothing to smell or taste. Even possible to have a virtual muscular or skeletal system, since in A Fine Mess, Yumi was experiencing back pain when while in Odd's body, tried to perform her normal gymnastics routine. And back pain is associated with (among other things) unusual stress on the spine and muscles in your back.

And I have no qualms with giving Cassius a Lyokologist title. He has been a fine contributor.

[TB3]

Nice points animnologist and it ROCKS AWESOMELY to see you back! Guess the avatars are once again back on the altar of debate.

Now then *ahem*

Cassius335, it is the decision of the Lyokologists to admit you as a member to our group, by a group decision of Animeologist, Your-Devirtualisation and myself on today Thursday 18th May 2006 - recieve the badge of office friend

Cassius335

[animenologist offline]

Its great to be back. Have been a bit busy as of late, so I couldn't get much time to visit, but now I have plenty of spare time on my hands.

Hmm - human bodily functions? I would have to say none - the avatars as we see them are constructs combining the human mind with a virtual body - there are no internal organs and many aspects of the brain are different even - for example the characters cannot and do not need to sleep on Lyoko, which in the human brain is needed to maintain sanity.

The counter-argument is Odd's stomach upsets from the transporter - now I don't think he actually has a stomach to feel queasy about, so possibly it's a 'phantom sensation' carrying over from his physical body.

About what I figured. Would RW sensations carry over into Lyoko? For example, if you were virtualised while feeling sick, would that carry over to your avatar?

There were 3 examples of people being virtualized in less than ideal physical condition. In Cruel Dilemma, after facing great physical trauma from being in a crashed bulldozer, Ulrich was virtualized while still a bit woozy, but seemed to be in good condition after transfer. In Laughing Fit, Odd was virtualized with a whiff of nitrous oxide resulting in a data transfer error and Odd having a feeling of being asphyxiated, one of the more common symptoms of overexposure to the gas. In Cold War, Odd was virtualized after wandering in Antarctic weather conditions and possibly suffering from hypothermia, but was feeling in good condition. One of our earlier theories is that virtualization, is that the scanners could be used for healing purposes, but only if it is programmed in, prior to transfer. These three episodes would be in line with our current thinking. In the case of Cruel Dilemma and Cold War, Jeremie could have redone the transfer to fix the ailments Ulrich and Odd were suffering from, so they could go in at normal physical condition. With Laughing Fit, the error didn't manifest itself until the transfer was irreversible, by which time, Jeremie couldn't stop the transfer, nor could he devirtualize Odd, since the lab was being filled with laughing gas, forcing Jeremie to retreat.

Atleast thats my thought on the idea.

[TB3]

It was suggested that Odd's stomach bug might be an avatar corruption since it carried over to Yumi - what if it's a lingering side-affect from the Nitrous Oxide damage - a single distorted variable resulting in specialised bouts of nausea.

[animenologist offline]

Motion sickness is usually related to ones anatomy. Only certain people suffer from it, thus why only Odd would suffer from it when it is in his body (and why Yumi would feel it in his body). If it was really a corruption of his avatar, I would think Jeremie would try to figure out a way to fix it, since he's fixed other anomalies before, including his anti-virus mishap in Vertigo, came close to fixing the virus in Routine, the shutoff in The Chips are Down, and off course the mind swap in A Fine Mess, all are arguably much greater corruptions of the avatar over minor bouts of nausea, so it should be easier to fix. Also, when he was having his various aches, he never considered it unnatural, or unusual. Actually, he considered not having it to be abnormal and cause for concern in The Key. This leads me to believe that the motion sickness is something he experiences naturally, including outside Lyoko.

[YDV offline]

Yes, maybe so (btw-- WELCOME BACK! ), but how would that be carried over, especially if scanning is supposed to serve healing purposes? You say it's because of the endolyph.... well, I suppose it would make sense for Hopper to incude some sort of motion-sensing function in the avatars. But then why don't the others feel it?

[animenologist offline]

Well I would guess that the anatomy of the virtual avatar would try to mimic as much as possible the real body (minus the super powers). The way endolymph would effect ones sense of motion would be transferred over similar to ones height, hair color, or basic body proportions. Its possible that their superpowers isn't a new addition to their avatar, but an enhancement of their already decent natural abilities (Odd was a decent climber and skateboarder on Earth and an even more exceptional with those abilities on Lyoko).

As to its healing purposes and why the scanners can't heal them, it makes you question how far they can go with it. Afterall, curing motion sickness is trying to suppress a natural reaction, and while there are medications to cure such a thing, they are not permanent and not without their side effects. Would the scanner be able to cure pimples, would the scanner be able to change ones anatomy? Lets say Odd's stature is due to some birth defect or a deficiency, would the scanner be able to cure that and make him taller? That would mean changing a person's natural anatomy, which we're unsure is up to Jeremie's skill level to do such a thing.

[YDV offline]

Technically, it -is- possible to change someone's anatomy.. Jeremie sort of did that with Aelita's "antivirus."

Hmm.. very good point though. Well, I suppose we're at "yes, it's possible, but to what extent?" now.

[Tom Bone offline]

How do I become a Lyokologist?

[animenologist offline]

Though I've only came back recently, it would seem the title is given to those who have made a decent and sizeable contribution to our research and studies, either by posing new ideas, validly challenging the old, or further expounding one idea that was given earlier. If you have contributed a decent amount and a few of the current Lyokologists agree to it, then we give you the official title. If you really want in, gaining favor with YDV, TB3, or myself will probably be good enough, since we were the first 3 Lyokologists and among the primary contributors to the body of knowledge.

[TB3]

How do I become a Lyokologist?

Animenologist summed it up best mate - I'm sure if you're here long enough you'll get in, just not right now.

Oh and guys, here's my personal timetable for the next few weeks, just to explain why I might not be around.

26th May - Final Date for submission of my Creative Writing Portfolio - 8000 words, currently in the stages of being rewritten - number of Code: Lyoko fanfiction excerpts of my creation slipped into the work, 2.

10th June - Final English Literature exam, requiring in depth re-reading of multiple texts prior to the exam.

17th June - Final Cultural Studies exam (barring a teacher's strike interfering with exam paper delivery, which we have been warned about) - again, this requires a whopping amount of revision.

Post June 17th - currently my plans are in flux, but within several weeks I must be ready to leave university and return home for the summer holidays.

Just a heads up as warning, sorry about this but it's now the most crucial 3 to 4 weeks of the academic year, hope you understand if I can't keep popping in here.

*

As for the rewriting anatomy thing, the easiest way to do it (aside from injecting Aelita as seen in the show), might be to devirtualise the person using not their original scan data, but the theoretical back-up file of the scan PRIOR to that. This might make the person several days younger technically, but would undo any injuries suffered - presumably Jeremie keeps these back-ups as up-to-date as possible, including his own (it only requires a scan as seen in 'False Start', not an actual virtualisation cycle), to protect against crippling injuries - it also suggests that any member of the team could be brought back from the edge of death regardless of the scale of their wounds, as long as they still have brain activity when loaded into the scanners.

As for actual 'rewriting' someone it's certainly possible, but might require some incrdible software and a substantial amount of biology and medical knowledge in the user, to rebuilt a damaged organ at that level, unless Franz wrote in a 'point-press-click' system for setting fractures, replacing damaged limbs and organs etc.

[Cassius335 offline]

Cassius335, it is the decision of the Lyokologists to admit you as a member to our group, by a group decision of Animeologist, Your-Devirtualisation and myself on today Thursday 18th May 2006 - recieve the badge of office friend

Thanks, guys!

[mooshie offline]

[quote=TB3 said]As for actual 'rewriting' someone it's certainly possible, but might require some incrdible software and a substantial amount of biology and medical knowledge in the user, to rebuilt a damaged organ at that level, unless Franz wrote in a 'point-press-click' system for setting fractures, replacing damaged limbs and organs etc.[/quote] somehow I doubt that Franz actually made a program, much less a GUI for healing someone seeing as he intended for he and Aelita to be on lyoko forever, but you never know, jeremie might write a program to heal wounds... or he might not[/quote]

[lyokodude offline]

Did you all ever come up with the reason why if your dead in the real world you will never come back?
Well if ya'll haven't I think I came up with one.
The reason is well reliogously speaking a soul would have departed from the body and therefor since only God can raise from the dead the soul would have to reenter [spelling not sure?] the body.Although nonreliogously speakin if a person's dead how could you reesemble [ spellin?] the necessary amino acids into a human without damagin its orginal character and that of the sorts?

[TB3]

Did you all ever come up with the reason why if your dead in the real world you will never come back?
Well if ya'll haven't I think I came up with one.
The reason is well reliogously speaking a soul would have departed from the body and therefor since only God can raise from the dead the soul would have to reenter [spelling not sure?] the body.Although nonreliogously speakin if a person's dead how could you reesemble [ spellin?] the necessary amino acids into a human without damagin its orginal character and that of the sorts?

No offence but I think we came to the agreement that despite our own personal beliefs, religion would not enter into our theories (and let's face it, the 'tangible soul' concept runs into problems when the kid's bodies are destroyed every time they use a scanner) - personally I think the soul is the conciousness, but there you go.

As for the 'dying despite RTTP' thingy - well we suggest that the RTTP sends data back in time into the minds of those who have interacted with XANA, just with memory blocks - the problem is that if dead in the future, the mind in the past will be rebuilt as dead matter, ergo, you just fall down dead.

[animenologist offline]

Its usually a good idea to never include theological arguments into a scientific debate or vice-versa, otherwise you'll make a mess of both. The whole point of the supernatural is that it can not be explained or proven on the merits of a natural explanation or method which science adheres to. And seeing how this is primarily a technical debate grounded in psuedoscience and imaginative science fiction, talks of god and the soul is not conducive to the idea of the thread.

As for what happens with dead people before a RTTP, though TB3 gave a pretty quick write-up, you could probably look through the first 3 or so pages of the original thread on it, since much of our early discussion revolved around RTTP and its method of working according to the show. Probably reading through those first 3 pages will give you the best idea of how we came to our current conclusion.

[lyokodude offline]

ONe of ya'll [as in the lets talk tech thread dudes and dudets] should write a book cominup with all your conclusions and such.

Well I read the earlier thread but I guess I missed it thanks for putting that straight TB3.

[Jazzy Josh offline]

ok...stuff gathered from the Wikipedia article on ZPE:

Because zero point energy is the lowest possible energy a system can have, then this energy can not be removed from the system.

In ordinary quantum mechanics, the zero-point energy is the energy associated with the ground state of the system. The most famous such example is the energy E=hw/2 associated with the ground state of the quantum harmonic oscillator. More precisely, the zero-point energy is the expectation value of the Hamiltonian of the system.

The concept of zero-point energy originated with Max Planck in 1911. The average energy of a harmonic oscillator in thermal equilibrium with its surroundings is:

E=(hw/2)+(hw/e^(hw/kT)-1

Here, E is Planck's constant, w is the natural frequency, k is Boltzmann's constant, and T is the temperature.

If energy cannot be removed from the system...could that be XANA's power or could it power the production of Qbits

[TB3]

Qubit's can't be 'created' like that - the computer needs to 'teach' itself how to create them.

Hi guys - I'm taking a break from work for a few days so I'm back, abeit temporarily

[DELETED offline]

DELETED

[TB3]

*jumps in*

If energy cannot be removed from the system...could that be XANA's power or could it power the production of Qbits

I think it is both, because XANA uses Qbits for his power. And as they proved in A Great Day that each RTTP does add one Qbit to the SC, and XANA must of found a way to harness the power of that by RTTPs.

Do you know what a QBit is - it's the quantum equivilent of a byte/bit - it exists as nothing more but a a value in the supercomputer, a numeric value.

The thing is, when the computer learns how to add another value to its coding, it can double it's processing power and compute higher and more eleborate functions (i.e. imagine if your computer got the ability to read 0, 1 and 2), hence why XANA was now able to 'hack' a human brain.

Another thing I'd like to restress is the idea that the computer gains a Qubit with ever RTTP - in all fairness this must surely be a myth, because by this point it would thus have over 2500 Qubits, which would effectively grant it Godhood, given modern predictions that a 300 qubit computer could simulate the entire universe on a particle level, from Big Bang to the end of time.