...*twitch*

[YDV offline]

You know, the millisecond before I started this topic, something somewhere in the back of my brain said "...Oh no. Here he goes again. *puts on controversy armor*" but I chose to ignore it. xD;;

Anyway.... okay, so, I was watching the news, right? And then I hear that President Bush has reiterated his support for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. And I'm like ......*drops fork* Seriously, ehfsei chi nyerge la arcya sai cha? Excuse me. What I meant to say is, what could possibly possess people to even support something like that? A constitutional amendment?! A mockery! Adding something which -inhibits- the rights of citizens of the United States is doing nothing but laughing in the face of everything at the core of the Constitution, hell, the principle of having rights in the first place. And then they say that like, 58% of Americans polled were against gay marriage, and 4..6? percent thought it should be a constitutional amendment. I don't care what your stance is on gay people being right or wrong or against the Pope-- excuse me, the Bible, in general is right now. How could you live with yourself, supporting something that would strip the rights of your fellowman, regardless of what you think of him? I speak not to you guys, but to those who think this is even -remotely- a good idea. I cannot believe the vast amount of sentiment this has recieved. My first impulse would be to get Bush the hell out of office for even suggesting such a thing, not go around supporting it. I read news reports that said the President claimed an amendment defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman was necessary because too many "activist judges" had tried to overturn efforts by voters in several states to ban marriages or civil unions between same-sex partners. So he'd go along with them? Politics is not the issue here, to please your own party rather than do something morally right. Whether or not you can be with someone you love and be under the same protection as any other couple is NOT to be decided upon by the government, it belong in the hands of the people themselves. And if the people of the United States of America agree to shed fellow citizens of their basic rights based on prejudice and hate, well... I shudder to think that I live in such a country. I see no difference between this and saying that black people can't marry white people, or can't vote, or own property.

And Whydeevee ends his rant here! Feel free to start yelling at each other.

[Lani offline]

Ugh. What on earth.

...

There are really no words to describe how appalled I am at this man for the majority of the things he's done. Wtf.

If he suggested it because the bible says so, then what on earth. There IS a law that separates church and state. If this country ends up being run off the bible, I am moving to Canada. No questions.

What on earth.

[The BB of C offline]

A lot of people have your stance on this subject, Your DeVirtualization. Have faith in that. But a lot of people (including myself) see it as A) wrong and B) disgusting. George Bush did what he thought was right and we should be respectful of that nonetheless.

[Insanity Hero offline]

I don't want to get into a debate with this right now, but I am for gay pride and gay marriage so this just teed me off hearing this crap. I believe that if you love someone even though their the same sex you should marry them.

And also what about gay peoples rights? What in the world is the place coming too? It seems like theres not a lot of rights for gay people. It seems like Bush here is trying to change the world as we know it.

I'm stopping right now because this post could go on forever and I'm not in the mood right now to have a debate. Cheers and have a good night to you all.

[Chosen_one offline]

I thought this was just a new law, but a constitutional amendment?!! For God's sake, Bush is going nuts!!

I'll tell you exactly why this is a constitutional amendment: if this was just another ordinary federal law, it would be unconstitutional because 1: marriage is one of the natural rights given by the constitution, 2: marriage is like a form of speech, communicating from one person to another their eternal love and loyalty and taking on the responsibility of supporting one another, and 3: there is nothing wrong with gay marriage. I'll discuss that later.

I now quote from my friend Cleverstar:

I think George Bush rules with an iron fist.

As wrong as this is, gay rights are not the problem here. It's the attitude that allowed for the support of this new law. As previously stated, marriage is a natural right that should be granted to every living man. Now, Bush and Congress are willing to take away a natural right simply because they don't support it. This new act can be the beginning of a totalitarian movement with Congress passing one law after another, amending the Constution to allow these laws to deprive us of our rights. It is small laws and policies such as this that led to the American Revolution, which started because of the Americans' fear of British power. While gay marriage is somewhat against Christianity, I believe that some people may fear Congress's abuse of power and possibly start a Second American Revolution.

Now, about why Bush wished to abolish gay marriage, and why there's nothing wrong with it:

If he suggested it because the bible says so, then what on earth. There IS a law that separates church and state. If this country ends up being run off the bible, I am moving to Canada. No questions.

As we can clearly see from this statement, gay marriage is against the bible, and it is obvious that that is the reason Bush supports this law. However, there are other religions within the United States, and the Constitution clearly states that people shall have freedom of religion. What Bush is trying to do may actually be described as Nazist. We all know that Nazism is the belief of a master race, and that all races underneath this master race is inferior. Based on this law, it's safe to suggest that Bush believes that Christianity is like a "master religion," and that all other religions and culture are inferior to it, and any law should let any other law slide if they support Christianity.
My point: there are other types of people; not all people are Christian. Some religions allow gay marriage, and some people such as myself are nonreligious and for them, religious boundaries don't apply.

Now I'll end my post.

[mooshie offline]

yeah, even if you're homophobic, it's their life not yours, and second of all they should have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us, I mean it really none of our business what they do, it doesn't really affect anyone but them, so why go through effort to prevent it, unless you are governing the country based on religion in which case you ( in this case george dubya bush) should be impeached for bigotry, that's why we have a process for impeachment, so that stupid or otherwise inept presidents (in this case both) don't stay in office *hmph and again hmph*

[YDV offline]

A lot of people have your stance on this subject, Your DeVirtualization. Have faith in that. But a lot of people (including myself) see it as A) wrong and B) disgusting. George Bush did what he thought was right and we should be respectful of that nonetheless.

Well, those people are, quite frankly, angadras. And secondly, they have no good reason to back up their claims except a book written so long ago that no one even bothers to remember. But I'll try and be respectful. And you're wrong, Bush didn't do what he thought was right-- he did claim to only be doing such an.. an atrocity to quell his political allies. Which I, personally, find to be cowardly beyond belief.

Wow, Chosen One. I may not have had time to read -everything- you said, but I agree with everything that I have.

I'll tell you exactly why this is a constitutional amendment: if this was just another ordinary federal law, it would be unconstitutional because 1: marriage is one of the natural rights given by the constitution, 2: marriage is like a form of speech, communicating from one person to another their eternal love and loyalty and taking on the responsibility of supporting one another, and 3: there is nothing wrong with gay marriage. I'll discuss that later.

Exactly. That's one reason why this will never pass through Congress. Adding an amendment that takes away citizens' rights is a blatant contradiction to the Constitution itself. I agree on all three points.

As wrong as this is, gay rights are not the problem here. It's the attitude that allowed for the support of this new law. As previously stated, marriage is a natural right that should be granted to every living man. Now, Bush and Congress are willing to take away a natural right simply because they don't support it. This new act can be the beginning of a totalitarian movement with Congress passing one law after another, amending the Constution to allow these laws to deprive us of our rights. It is small laws and policies such as this that led to the American Revolution, which started because of the Americans' fear of British power. While gay marriage is somewhat against Christianity, I believe that some people may fear Congress's abuse of power and possibly start a Second American Revolution.

Very. Very true. The scary thing is is that I can see that happening. Granted, the most unfortunately closed-minded Christians will probably be elated with this, while waving their confederate flags but people with enough sense (not saying that Christians in general don't have sense, just that there are some that don't) should realize how wrong this is.

As we can clearly see from this statement, gay marriage is against the bible, and it is obvious that that is the reason Bush supports this law. However, there are other religions within the United States, and the Constitution clearly states that people shall have freedom of religion. What Bush is trying to do may actually be described as Nazist. We all know that Nazism is the belief of a master race, and that all races underneath this master race is inferior. Based on this law, it's safe to suggest that Bush believes that Christianity is like a "master religion," and that all other religions and culture are inferior to it, and any law should let any other law slide if they support Christianity.
My point: there are other types of people; not all people are Christian. Some religions allow gay marriage, and some people such as myself are nonreligious and for them, religious boundaries don't apply.

At this I applaud you. This is what some people don't seem to be getting. The United States is not a 100% Republican Christian Caucasian-minded English-speaking country (though it's ironic that this is what the collective of our government represents..). We're made up of different people. We're diverse. So therefore you simply cannot in good conscience regarding the principles on which this nation was founded pass laws that favor any one group. And your last statement is another thing. Who you can and cannot marry absolutely should not be decided by the government, it should be decided by either their faith or the people themselves. Who is Bush, who is Congress to say that you can't love another person, and enjoy the same protection as couples involving males and females?

Okay, so I lied. I did have time to read everything you said. Oh well. >>;

...Woah. I seriously didn't know I could talk like that. xD;; I guess it must be my genius-embodied-inside-a-feline personality again. Or it might be because I'm really angry. Not only because of personal reasons, but because I really would be despaired to see America turn into the type of country you described, ruled by power-hungry politicians and people feuled by hate.

If he suggested it because the bible says so, then what on earth. There IS a law that separates church and state. If this country ends up being run off the bible, I am moving to Canada. No questions.

Me too. Definitely. Besides, the Mountees are hot. xD;;

[The BB of C offline]

Well, those people are, quite frankly, angadras. And secondly, they have no good reason to back up their claims except a book written so long ago that no one even bothers to remember. But I'll try and be respectful. And you're wrong, Bush didn't do what he thought was right-- he did claim to only be doing such an.. an atrocity to quell his political allies. Which I, personally, find to be cowardly beyond belief.

Low blow, that's what I think about that.

[GOGOLINIICHAN! offline]

Thank you, Chosen_one, for mentioning CONGRESS!

Whether you all want to believe it or not, Congress makes the laws. In fact, Congress does mostly everything. In a sense, Congressional elections are much more important than Presidential elections; though no one even cares about them at all. That's not to say that the President is simply a figurehead like Kings and Queens of England are now, because he does still have a lot of influence and a lot of powers, but ultimately it's Congress that really does everything.

For example, with this bill against gay marriage to ban it Constitutionally. Congress is the one that sends it to the President. They give him the power to either sign it, veto it, or pocket veto it. If he vetoes it, they get it back and can STILL pass it without Bush. If Bush signs it, yes, a ton of the blame falls on him but it was still Congress that pushed it through that far (that's BOTH Senators and the House of Representatives pushing it through to the President). If Bush pocket vetoes it, it either becomes a law but the responsibility falls on Congress (which he might do) or if the court is adjorned after ten days the bill will simply disappear.

Now, I don't love Bush and in fact I disagree with a lot of things he does. I also think it is very wrong to ban gay marriage. But blaming just Bush is stupid. It's Congress that really pushed this through, and like YDV said, polls are high in support for this apparently. It's your fellow people whose rights are being deprived that are VOTING for this.

Kind of crazy when you think about it.

[Paige offline]

Why the heck do people even care about what OTHER people do with their lives? Frankly, it's none of ours business, and no one should regulate or put rules on who people love. It's ridiculous. Some people should just get their heads out of their butts and realize that life can't be controlled by them, and life is changing.

[MY85 offline]

Linii, nice post.

But... do you think the Congressmen would read the entire laws and prospects?? Not at all. Maybe 1 or 2 read the damn thing... but a few make the laws, then everyone on the Congress votes WITHOUT taking in mind any future consequence. They just vote and maybe just vaguely analyze the laws... but in the end, who has the final word on what should go or not is Bush.

About gay marriage... I don't mind them at all existing in the world and doing their rights as human beings. As long as they don't attack me, I'm okay.

[Vora Lyoko offline]

Why can't white people marry black people? I'm a mix of that.

So why can't Women marry Woman or Men marry men?

I'm not a supported on each side but I think people should dp whatever they want. There's a woman in India who married a snake.

I mean sure it's kinda messing with the laws of nature but still, people in this world are crazy. Personelly I hate gays....but hey just live with it.

You can't do anything about it but somebody will try.....like Bush...[/i]

[GOGOLINIICHAN! offline]

Linii, nice post.

But... do you think the Congressmen would read the entire laws and prospects?? Not at all. Maybe 1 or 2 read the damn thing... but a few make the laws, then everyone on the Congress votes WITHOUT taking in mind any future consequence. They just vote and maybe just vaguely analyze the laws... but in the end, who has the final word on what should go or not is Bush.

About gay marriage... I don't mind them at all existing in the world and doing their rights as human beings. As long as they don't attack me, I'm okay.

That's true, Rodri. A lot of them just vote with their party or don't even care at all. And Bush can influence what they do.

But that just comes back down to the people. We elect Congress; Bush doesn't hand pick them. Maybe we should really stop electing retards and pay more attention to our government then we are. O-O

[Chosen_one offline]

If you've read my rant "A Multi-Cultural Clash," then you know that sometimes, I really hate living here in America. But what bothers me the most is one of America's biggest slogans: "The Land of the Free." "It's a free country." "Let Freedom Ring." Ever since its split from the British Empire, the United States have been obsessed with freedom. The disturbing thing about this is that the United States is not a free country.

In the very beginning, much of American exported materials were made by African slaves. These people had committed no crime; they were slaves because they existed. That's not exactly what I call freedom. Even after slavery, women still had fewer rights because they were women. And during World War II, Japanese-Americans were sent to concentration camps because they were Japanese. Or more exact, because they were not caucasions. (Many people would argue that this was because it was easier to tell the difference between Japanese and Caucasian people. But they're wrong; there were Chinese people living in America, too. There's this barber in California; every time he gets an Asian customer, he asks if they were Chinese. But they never bothered to find out if Caucasians were German or Italian.) Whether you want to admit it or not, throughout American history and even now, Caucasian and Christian men were dominant because of their race.

In Social Studies class, we were taught that communist nations did not have freedom. My teacher said that China, a communist nation (my nation), didn't have freedom of speech. But he's wrong. They're all wrong. Sure, our television networks and newspapers may be censored, but is that necessairly bad? Right now, because of this censoring, we are more free than the United States has ever been. In fact, it's unconstitutional in China to publically describe someone as inferior because of their nationality. We allow what needs to be allowed and we ban what needs to be banned. America says this is wrong. America says this deprives us of freedom. And yet, look at George Bush and the American Congress, actually supporting a totally racist amendment that takes away the right to love. During government imbalances, love is what keeps people together. Love has always been the most important factor in life. And yet now here's America, the "Land of the Free," a nation devoted to freedom taking away this right, this element to those they personally don't believe should have it. There is such a thing as too much freedom, and at this point Bush may be enjoying it. For all we know, he probably believes he has the freedom to abuse his power because "it's a free country."

[GOGOLINIICHAN! offline]

For all we know, he probably believes he has the freedom to abuse his power because "it's a free country."

I like that last line. :p

But you're right; even adult Americans, regardless of their race or sexual preference, treat the whole "freedom" and "equal rights" thing wrongly. What most people want is not "equal rights," it's MORE rights. And that's really sad and messed up.

[MY85 offline]

For all we know, he probably believes he has the freedom to abuse his power because "it's a free country."

I like that last line. :p

But you're right; even adult Americans, regardless of their race or sexual preference, treat the whole "freedom" and "equal rights" thing wrongly. What most people want is not "equal rights," it's MORE rights. And that's really sad and messed up.

That line from Chosen_one....

Instead of more rights... their own rights and interests as a priority along with equal rights to their civilization.

[KingCheez offline]

OH GOD THERE'S A GAY COUPLE ON MY STREET AND THEY FLIP OUT AND MAKE OUT IN PUBLIC AND ARE A BAD INFLUENCE ON CHILDREN OH GOD BAN GAY MARRIAGE.

Just kidding, they're the nicest guys I've ever met.

[Ghost Guest offline]

You know, gay marriage is a controversial topic all around the world. Just like in the States, in my country (Costa Rica) there's this whole debate about whether it should be allowed or not. I have nothing against it, in fact I wish people would accept it, but I know they won't. By listening to the news I realize people are very close-minded, very influenced by their religion; they can't have an opinion different to the one they hear in church and that's really sad. Most people will tell you that gay marriage is wrong because it is against God. Now, I have nothing against religion, but when people try to impose their believes on other people and pretend them to think and act like they do, well that's when the problem begins.

So it's very difficut to change people's view of gay marriage. And it's sad, beacuse it makes you doubt how much advanced our society truly is. I guess we'll have to wait (and hope) for a more open-minded world in the future, beacuse right now, stubborn, disrespectful people who don't understand what freedom truly means are the majority.

[Skiiran Lord offline]

In my opinion, it's things like this that are turning us into a McCarthyist state, which is possibly the worst thing to happen. Whenever one of the "Cool" kids at my school sees someone who he/she disagrees with, they point and yell "You're gay!" and it just ticks me off.

The fact that people make a bigger deal about ALBINISM than this is utter idiocy.

So it's very difficut to change people's view of gay marriage. And it's sad, beacuse it makes you doubt how much advanced our society truly is. I guess we'll have to wait (and hope) for a more open-minded world in the future, beacuse right now, stubborn, disrespectful people who don't understand what freedom truly means are the majority.

Good God, you're absolutely right. It's scary that, no matter how much we United Statsians think we're freedom-loving, we suppress the rights of normal people!

[Rail Runner offline]

Honestly...I think it all comes down to another move the government is making to take away our rights as citizens....to me, its not just about gay or straight, white or black...the government is trying to take away EVERYONE'S rights, land of the free...not really...we arent allowed to do much of anything without the gov't stepping in and controlling it, and its only gonna get worse. It starts with this, then they will try to take away other personal rights...when does it end. End of rant.

[Lani offline]

Now, I have nothing against religion, but when people try to impose their believes on other people and pretend them to think and act like they do, well that's when the problem begins.

Yes, exactly. I'm not religious at ALL save maybe Erynnism, but that's a different story xDD;, and to be honest I get kind of offended when some one who is extremely religious tries to spew all their views on me. For some reason, it's always Christianity...

And about discrimination against gay people (or anyone who falls within that category: GLBT, even pansexual), it saddens me because the majority of my own friends are that way (and to tell the truth, I don't have a single real life, close male friend who is straight. Roflcopters.), and if the discrimination gets too great (beyond just marriage rights), that will definitely be a bad turning point and things won't end up too pretty.

Hopefully, maybe in the somewhat near future, close minded people will get over this discrimination... They did for other races, right? Then why is sexual preferance such a big deal? And like KingCheez said, they are definitely one of the more nicer people in this world... they didn't do anything to you, did they?


Roflcopters, I'm so tired. x__x

[Rail Runner offline]

There was a seperation of church and state for a reason...but the gov't doesnt care about reasons...nor do they care about rights...they live their wealthy lives, and dont care what happens below them.

[GOGOLINIICHAN! offline]

Honestly...I think it all comes down to another move the government is making to take away our rights as citizens....to me, its not just about gay or straight, white or black...the government is trying to take away EVERYONE'S rights, land of the free...not really...we arent allowed to do much of anything without the gov't stepping in and controlling it, and its only gonna get worse. It starts with this, then they will try to take away other personal rights...when does it end. End of rant.

I think that's kind of ridiculous. Yes, there is a power struggle here as there is everywhere and yes there is much debate over what rights really are and what they aren't. But something like this is just... a little stretched, IMO. If this wasn't a genuine issue then it wouldn't have come to the government's attention in the first place. This isn't something they just made up, or else that IS an insult to people that truly care about this issue and the outcome.

[. offline]

instead of, ya know, solving problems like the war in Iraq or rising gas prices lets waste away tax dollars on something as stupid as this.

#1 the amendment won't pass. even if both houses agree it take like 3/4 of the states to ratify it.

#2 Thus this proves George Bush is a liar

#3 the gay rights issue will never be solved because it's too good of a political scape goat. Bust is only doing this because his political rating is down.

And to be frank, I don't care much either way. Banned or not, it doesn't affect me.

[YDV offline]

...xD;; There's so much of what you guys have said that I could comment on. But unfortunately my attention span is too small and I'm running on a time limit >>;

Low blow, that's what I think about that.

Ah, the Emperor has no clothes. It's perfectly okay for people from the Church/Closed-Minded-Dom to say whatever they want about gay people, condemning them to hell, but the moment someone says something to call them out, it's a "low blow."

Yes, exactly. I'm not religious at ALL save maybe Erynnism, but that's a different story xDD;, and to be honest I get kind of offended when some one who is extremely religious tries to spew all their views on me. For some reason, it's always Christianity...

Yeah. It's kind of sad really. You notice that the Muslims weren't the ones who STARTED the Crusades....

And about discrimination against gay people (or anyone who falls within that category: GLBT, even pansexual), it saddens me because the majority of my own friends are that way (and to tell the truth, I don't have a single real life, close male friend who is straight. Roflcopters.), and if the discrimination gets too great (beyond just marriage rights), that will definitely be a bad turning point and things won't end up too pretty.

Yeah! D< ....Neither do I. xD;; Seriously, I believe if that happens, what we'll have on our hands here is a battle between the government, religion, and the people. And it all depends on what alliances will be taken up. And by then at least three members of this forum shall become Canadians.

..xD;;

Hopefully, maybe in the somewhat near future, close minded people will get over this discrimination... They did for other races, right? Then why is sexual preferance such a big deal? And like KingCheez said, they are definitely one of the more nicer people in this world... they didn't do anything to you, did they?

Exactly. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how long such a change in views would take...

Just kidding, they're the nicest guys I've ever met.

I wish there were more people like you in the world. Seriously.

Whether you all want to believe it or not, Congress makes the laws. In fact, Congress does mostly everything. In a sense, Congressional elections are much more important than Presidential elections; though no one even cares about them at all. That's not to say that the President is simply a figurehead like Kings and Queens of England are now, because he does still have a lot of influence and a lot of powers, but ultimately it's Congress that really does everything.

I'm not sure how much I agree with that. Are you saying 2/3 of the branches of our government are powerless? I'd shudder to think. Hmm... this makes me think back to Checks and Balances in 8th grade... (damnit I knew I should've saved my binder! xD) Executive checks Legislative by vetoes. Legislative checks Executive by over...over... over something. And Judicial? Don't they judge the constitutionality of things? Yeah. I think that's part of the reason this has escalated past court-level to the other branches. The whole "courts decide" thing isn't really working since the Judges are either going one way or another with it, they decided to make laws to stop them from bickering. But they're not realizing what those laws would do to society. It's almost like they don't actually care about the people, just politics and keeping government officials quiet or happy.

Kind of crazy when you think about it.

Isn't it? This is why I think the world would be a better place if the people of LF took over the United States. xD; (No, seriously. I'd get my Hobo Army to attack all the state capitals, and then hire the Martians to blow up Congress...)