Let's Talk Tech II - Over a year of Tech! :)

[Rudger offline]

Excuse me if I'm wrong but I thought it might be time to dig up this thread.

A couple of things I noticed while I was watching the prequels today.

1: Lyoko Avatar style and abilities.
I believe that our previous theory on this subject was that Jeremie wrote the programs in accordance with what the team wanted. This is not the case. It was suggested in the show that the supercomputer looksin your mind for your image of yourself, much like the explination given to Neo in the matrix as to why he was wearing different clothes. Odd stated that this was not the case: "I don't dream of giant purple cats!"

My theory is that the supercomputer looks for things that are deeply rooted into their mind and mixes that with their physical abilities.
For example: Odd probably loves his dog more than anything in the world which would explainthe picture on his chest. he is probably very fond of animals which is why he has little animal symbols on him. Physicaly he is quick and agile like a cat, explaining his cat outfit. most likely a good marksman which is why he has arrows for a weapon.

Ulrich and yumi can be similarly explainde but I dont want to make this post to big.

2: Why does Odd have his sheild ability in the prequel?

3:Jeremies inability to remember anything that happened before the return to the past.

I am unsure if this was cleared up or not because I missed the last few minutes of the show. I think this can be explained simply by saying that jeremie scanned himself into the supercomputer so he could remember with the rest of the gang. He could not have been sent to lyoko then because at a later time in the storyline they realize that Jeremie looks rediculous on lyoko after visiting for the first time.

I hope you can undersand my horrible grammar. These were just some things I felt deserved a little talking about so Im sorry if I bumped this for nothing

[Sithking Zero offline]

The reason that Jeremie couldn't remember was because he never scanned himself into the computer's database. He did it after the episode was over, but he did it alone. And, if we remember "False Start" correctly, you don't need to go to Lyoko to be scanned into the computer (Jeremie scanned Aelita after she dropped dead when they cut the power to the supercomputer).

As to why Odd had his shield ability in the prequel, but not in season one, they may have either goofed up (but we're assuming it's cannon) or Odd may have simply forgotten about it. That happens to me when I play video games. After I beat a boss, I realize that I had the one weapon that would have killed him instantly, but I forgot all about it.

[Cassius335 offline]

Actually, Jeremie says he "Digitized" himself, which sort of implies he DID go to Lyoko, though perhaps on his own. Though either way you have to wonder who was running the computer while he was being scanned in. Judging by later competence, it clearly wasn't Yumi.

As for the Avatars, Jeremie may not have made them in the first place, but he seems to have found out how to modify them...

[TB3]

Hehe - thanks for rebooting the thread guys.

Wll, let's see - I knew about the whole 'Avatar generated by computer by reading psyche' thing months ago as a result of my Paris trip. I'd like to state at the time that I was NOT happy - it sounded almost too 'magical' to me, and unresolved. Okay we can say that the computer scans a psyche, but HOW, and how does it have a context to understand that psyche.

And if the computer can read that part of the brain, then why can't XANA just read minds with a little hacking.

So, Chupathingy and I had a loooooooooooong talk about this yesterday and came up with a theory.

During the time on Lyoko, the mind becomes a virtual entitiy running off Lyoko's partical-simulation-system - therefore it itself could be used as the software for programming the avatar.

Much talk has also been made of how the computer runs in 'real time' when it could and SHOULD be running much faster - at hyper-speeds in truth.

Okay, so let's put these two together.

When the scan begins, the computer takes the mental data and runs a simulation of it seperate from the owner (this in fact is how we suspect Franz gave XANA 'intelligence', by scanning his own brain's logic-centres) - this simulation (let's say of Odd's mind) is not running at the same speed as Lyoko, and thus millions of calculations can be done per second with it.

What calculations you ask? We suggest that the computer literally runs every reference in its databanks through the user's simulated mind and sees if it gets a good response - this is similar to the Michael Crichton novel 'The Terminal Man', where electrical diodes surgically inserted in smeone's mind can be used to induce various feelings and sensations (the results are unique to each user but in the novel's case included happiness, pain, discomfort, childish behavior, and the taste of a ham sandwich) by fine-tuning the input current.

What this means is that the computer doesn't need the frightening ability to read minds and understand the human subconcious at a level beyond Freud and the great psycologists, only that it can recognise the mind 'liking' one of the ideas it imputs to it.

For example, when Odd is scanned the computer runs a simulation of the mind and tosses millions of references from it's data-base at him, and monitors the pleasure centres for a response.

So, hypothetically the results would be;

SUBJECT 3
BEST HARMONISATION WITH INPUTS:
17643: Animal (Cat)
27543: Colour (Purple)
00432: Weapon (Longbow)
00456: Weapon (Pistol)
00476: Weapon (Thompson Sub-Machine Gun)

SECONDARY HARMONISATION WITH INPUTS:
89456: Animal (Dog)
74211: Food (Meatballs and Gravy)

And so on and so forth.

And here comes the clever part - the best results can then be used to generate an avatar, using the subjects own imagination!

i.e. the computer takes these critera and generates a number of possible avatars (with unique colouration, weapons and attributes etc) and then runs them through the mind again, lookng for the best results - based on the 'happy' responses the computer can then take back the ones most liked, modify and combine them, and then keep looping this process until there is a final avatar as a result of the entire process that the mind likes.

The side effect though, is that the more imaginative the person, the more imaginative the avatar is likely to be, as they are more likely to accept 'radical' designs (such as four-finger paw-gloves, a tail and purple war-paint).

With the design finalised, the simulation of the mind stops and the finalised avatar simulation is converted into a vDNA-based wireframe which can then be combined with the user's molecular vDNA and conciousness. The avatar is then 'locked' to the user's biological data in the computer's memory banks, finalising the process.

All the above takes place in at most a second or two, while the subject is still standing in the scanner, and because their minds were not the simulated one, they are not aware of what they will look like on Lyoko, and may well express dislike initally (like Odd did) - however they will soon find that the avatar has been tailor-made for them, because they (unkowningly) were design consulatants through the entire proceedure of generating it.

This then is how we can get an avatar from the subconcious without requiring Franz to have been a genius psycologist as well as computer engineer, quantum physicist and molecular biologist.

You like?

[Cassius335 offline]

I like, but with one catch: In order to create the simulation of a persons mind, the scanners would have to read it in order to scan it. Basic computing. And why throw away a good XANA scheme?

[TB3]

I like, but with one catch: In order to create the simulation of a persons mind, the scanners would have to read it in order to scan it. Basic computing. And why throw away a good XANA scheme?

Not really - all the computer needs to do is isolate the brain data in the scan and imput that molecular data into the partical simulation system - viola, a virtual mind, and the computer can then feed sensory imformation to it through the simulated nervous system - it doesn't require the mind-reading ability, which I can't see working.

[Cassius335 offline]

I like, but with one catch: In order to create the simulation of a persons mind, the scanners would have to read it in order to scan it. Basic computing. And why throw away a good XANA scheme?

Not really - all the computer needs to do is isolate the brain data in the scan and imput that molecular data into the partical simulation system - viola, a virtual mind, and the computer can then feed sensory imformation to it through the simulated nervous system - it doesn't require the mind-reading ability, which I can't see working.

You miss my point: the scanning process itself is mind-reading. (Comprehending, of course, is another matter entirely)

[TB3]

I like, but with one catch: In order to create the simulation of a persons mind, the scanners would have to read it in order to scan it. Basic computing. And why throw away a good XANA scheme?

Not really - all the computer needs to do is isolate the brain data in the scan and imput that molecular data into the partical simulation system - viola, a virtual mind, and the computer can then feed sensory imformation to it through the simulated nervous system - it doesn't require the mind-reading ability, which I can't see working.

You miss my point: the scanning process itself is mind-reading. (Comprehending, of course, is another matter entirely)

Agreed - the computer only needs to read the molecular, atomic and quantum properties of it's subject and shunt it around, not necessarily understand.

[Cassius335 offline]

Let me get a couple of things clear...

When the scan begins, the computer takes the mental data and runs a simulation of it seperate from the owner (this in fact is how we suspect Franz gave XANA 'intelligence', by scanning his own brain's logic-centres) - this simulation (let's say of Odd's mind) is not running at the same speed as Lyoko, and thus millions of calculations can be done per second with it.

What calculations you ask? We suggest that the computer literally runs every reference in its databanks through the user's simulated mind and sees if it gets a good response - this is similar to the Michael Crichton novel 'The Terminal Man', where electrical diodes surgically inserted in smeone's mind can be used to induce various feelings and sensations (the results are unique to each user but in the novel's case included happiness, pain, discomfort, childish behavior, and the taste of a ham sandwich) by fine-tuning the input current.

So the seperated simulation runs faster than the original virtual mind?

What this means is that the computer doesn't need the frightening ability to read minds and understand the human subconcious at a level beyond Freud and the great psycologists, only that it can recognise the mind 'liking' one of the ideas it imputs to it.

No, but then no human alive can do that!

Remember, the computer already knows enough to simulate voices, actions and expessions (and allow the voices to be understandable). So while the kids are on Lyoko their minds are being read all the time; otherwise they couldn't talk or move. It doesn't need Freud for that.

And once that's in place... well, 157 Qubits? I imagine it'll figure out the rest. But it doesn't need "beyond Freud" comphrehenision. the comphrehension level of you or I will manage just fine...

[TB3]

Hehe - I don't mean reading minds as in 'extrapolating a voice or body motion' - what I mean is literal psychoanalysis, you know - mystic 'BWAHAHAHA! I can see into your soul' stuff. That's the stuff I don't like.

[Cassius335 offline]

Hehe - I don't mean reading minds as in 'extrapolating a voice or body motion' - what I mean is literal psychoanalysis, you know - mystic 'BWAHAHAHA! I can see into your soul' stuff. That's the stuff I don't like.

Soul and mind are diffrent things, though. The SuperCalculator would work with the personality and memory data it has and extrapolate from them. Nothing 'mystic' involved. Of course, the extrapolations have the possibility of being wrong... but then, what else is new?

[TB3]

The reason I don't agree is how could the computer interpret and contextualise any mental patterns, and how would it read them - I doubt it has the ability to do all this you see - Franz is not a genius in every subject under the sun and it took XANA months to get even a vague understanding of the human mind.

You point out that the computer has to read a mind to be able to operate it on Lyoko - I'd like to point out that this is not the case if we're correct and the mental molecular data is just fed into the partical simulation system - in this case the mind would be it's own software, and the computer would not have to worry about trying to interpret mental signals.

Lol, is this going to be another 'Quantum Superimposition' debate between us?

[Rail Runner offline]

Honestly..in my view, I think it would be alot easier to just transfer the mind signals while transferring the molecular structure, therefore making one process instead of having to take up space to run a whole seperate process. It would make things alot easier on the computer itself.

[Cassius335 offline]

The other problem is how could the computer contextualise any mental pattersn, and how would it read them - I doubt it has the ability to do that you see.

You point out that the computer has to read a mind to be able to operate it on Lyoko - I'd like to point out that this is not the case if we're correct and the mental molecular data is just fed into the partical simulation system - in this case the mind would be it's own software, and the computer would not have to worry about trying to interpret mental signals.

Bad analogy. Software has to be compatible with the operating system!

Lol, is this going to be another 'Quantum Superimposition' debate between us?

Maybe. Keeps the thread going, doesn't it?

[Rail Runner offline]

Debates arent a bad thing...

[TB3]

Debates arent a bad thing...

Then let battle commence (rolls up sleeves)

Okay Cass - let's say we have here (holds hands apart) Lyoko's Partical Simulation System - this is comfirmed by the show to build 3D models out of virtual objects known as 'Blocks', which are Lyoko's equivilent to pixels.

Into this we feed the data from the mental scan, as a vDNA code. This configures the blocks into a model of the brain - and by itself it becomes a working model - in effect a computer WITHIN the computer.

This model brain will be represented by (looks around, and then grabs an object) this digital camera (holds between hands).

So, I am the supercomputer, and inside me I have this 'virtual brain' (the camera) - I don't know how it works, or why it works - however, that can't stop me from doing some rudimentary functions from it - with the camera I can take pictures and see them on a little LCD screen - with the supercomputer it can input sensory feeds, and recieve commands (i.e. twitch my tail 21 degrees up and 45 degrees right).

The computer does not have to understand the workings of the brain or what goes on within it any more than I have to understand hw my camera works - all it has to do is recieve and direct data to and from it - piss easy

[Rail Runner offline]

Good point there Teebs...and that sort illustrates my point about the brain particles being transferred as one unit with the body particles...wouldnt that be easier in effect?

[TB3]

Good point there Teebs...and that sort illustrates my point about the brain particles being transferred as one unit with the body particles...wouldnt that be easier in effect?

Maybe, but I'm certain that the avatar design process occurs seperately from the subject, because Odd's 'Kitty Form' appeared on Jeremie's screen while Odd was still in the scanner.

[Rail Runner offline]

Touchet dear friend, touchet.

I think that has more to do with just design than anything..what I was referring to was that their thoughts dont seemingly affect the rest of lyoko...unless they kill a monster or something.

Unless thats sorta what your camera reference was saying.

[Cassius335 offline]

This model brain will be represented by (looks around, and then grabs an object) this digital camera (holds between hands).

So, I am the supercomputer, and inside me I have this 'virtual brain' (the camera) - I don't know how it works, or why it works - however, that can't stop me from doing some rudimentary functions from it - with the camera I can take pictures and see them on a little LCD screen - with the supercomputer it can input sensory feeds, and recieve commands (i.e. twitch my tail 21 degrees up and 45 degrees right).

The computer does not have to understand the workings of the brain or what goes on within it any more than I have to understand hw my camera works - all it has to do is recieve and direct data to and from it - piss easy

Gotcha.

Firstly, if you're the supercomputer, what role does your computer play in this little drama? For the sake of discussion. let's assume it's the parts of the system related to the Avatars.

Secondly, You know that CD that came with your camera? That holds the camera's operating software. Without that software installed, your computer can't run the camera and you can't do anything with it.

It's the same with the virtual brain. Without the right software, which connects the virtual brain to the Avatars, the Avatar system can't do much with the virtual brain (copy it, move it, delete it. That's about it) because it doesn't know how to interpret the data.

[TB3]

Lol Cass, I agree the computer will need a degree of software in order to decode and encode the data coming in and out of the virtual brain, but not to actually run it.

Chupathingy when converting this into computer-jargon described the brain as providing it's own 'bios', or operational software.

(waves hand mysteriously and speaks hypnotically)

"You will accept what I tell you, Quantum Superimposition works, these aren't the droids you're looking for!"

[Cassius335 offline]

Lol Cass, I agree the computer will need a degree of software in order to decode and encode the data coming in and out of the virtual brain, but not to actually run it.

Chupathingy when converting this into computer-jargon described the brain as providing it's own 'bios', or operational software.

The decoding and encoding bit? My point.

Not sure what Chupathingy is aiming for. Sure, the camera would have built-in software/circutry to know how to run itself, but that on it's own doesn't do your computer any good. Without the encode/decode software, any input from the camera is meaningless, like trying to run a GBA game-file on a PC without the appropriate emulator. It simply won't work.

P.S. You DO remember I'm a boy, right?

[TB3]

Yes, yes I do - I need only look at that smiling image in your avatar to confirm that- man, if you were a girl my advice would be to lay off the drugs sistah!

Looks like we all agree then - sunny sunny fun.

Coming up soon, LTT's meat and potatoes - inventing fun new bits of hardware and giving it three-letter-anagram names - Douggie (Chupathingy) and I spent a long, long time talking about RAM and stuff yesterday.

Btw, I keep finding more and more sci-fi novels and respected scientific essays suggesting the use of Zero-Point-Energy for time travel, warping of space-time and other colourful uses - looks like we got that one right!

[Cassius335 offline]

How many of them? And how many of those cover paradoxes? How many of those agree with you on Destructive Interference?

[Rail Runner offline]

Do I smell pwnage here...I think so.

I cant wait to see the raw meat coming up.