Let's Talk Tech II - Over a year of Tech! :)

[Rail Runner offline]

Things are now starting to get good...the more we debate, the better things get.

Good word choice Cassius.

[Shi_Min_Xi offline]

Feel free to shoot or complelty ignore me if you guys already solved this issue....But since it's like 20 something pages of LTT2 (Forgive me, reading LTT would've killed me first xD)...By the time I actually see if this was mentioned, I'd forgotten about it already xDD And I also know we're dealing with speech at the current moment.

I see your point. Yeah, that does make sense, but I'm kinda shying away from the idea that multiple timelines can exist at the same time without a sort of paradox, because that suggests that time is not linear (not like a stream or river, but like a lake with a slow current). And... that pretty much bunks our other theory, which sounded pretty darn good to me. So I don't want to bunk it just yet. xD;

I see no reasons why multiple timelines can't exist....Look at it this way, all the timelines run the same way. Everything is exactly the same with no changes at all. Then CL's timeline gets attacked by XANA. This doesn't happen to the other ones. TL goes into Lyoko blah blah blah. The RTTP is then issued and then the SC goes to another timeline, grabs the part between the return and start points, copies it and dumps it into CL's timeline while erasing the old one. The memories are still kept because the scanner scanned them and recorded them and thus when everything falls back into place of the newly copied part of the timeline they still remember stuff and nothing happened xD

I'm pretty sure I stole this idea from Diane Duane's "A Wizard Aboard," and just twisted a bit. xDD

[Rail Runner offline]

That would explain why the group and only the group can remember stuff, while everyone else's memory is replaced by the new timeline.

[TB3]

That would explain why the group and only the group can remember stuff, while everyone else's memory is replaced by the new timeline.

That's only describing the 'how' not the 'why' - and since temporal mechanics are totally undefined, I don't see the need for another paradox debate right now

[Rail Runner offline]

Getting into the why would put most of us into a mental institution buddy...haha.

[TB3]

Getting into the why would put most of us into a mental institution buddy...haha.

Yesssss - hence all that wonderful arguing over Paradox and Quantum Superimposition

[Cassius335 offline]

Quantum Superimposition (ghost universes) is fine. It's Destructive Interference (the universe automatically killing people with very specific quantum echoes because that's how they died in the last universe) where things fall down. So much for TB3 not liking magical explanations (which was how the Avatar debate got started).

[TB3]

Quantum Superimposition (ghost universes) is fine. It's Destructive Interference (the universe automatically killing people with very specific quantum echoes because that's how they died in the last universe) where things fall down. So much for TB3 not liking magical explanations (which was how the Avatar debate got started).

Let's not go into that - I still have nightmares

[Reesane offline]

Maby the RTTP isn't like a time macen, in wich you can creat two difrent sensrose, but it may be more like a tape recorder. It "rewinds" and then erites over time. One time stream, no paredox posibility.

I just woke up so i can't realy see what I'm typing. so I hope you can read this.

[TB3]

Maby the RTTP isn't like a time macen, in wich you can creat two difrent sensrose, but it may be more like a tape recorder. It "rewinds" and then erites over time. One time stream, no paredox posibility.

I just woke up so i can't realy see what I'm typing. so I hope you can read this.

Lol, go to sleep man.

Look, let's just get this down flat and settle this once and for all. If time travel is possible, then Paradoxes WILL HAPPEN in the linear timestream the show depicts.

There is a possibility that paradoxes do not occur in other models of time, but these not not apply because they state it is impossible to change the future, which we see occuring in every episode with an RTTP.

Therefore, time in CL is linear, therefore we WILL have paradoxes.

Example of a Paradox:

In XANA awakens part two we have the unusual example of a member of the team not being affected by the RTTP. We also have the unusual example of an episode lasting for two days.

Right, at 8.10 pm in the first sequence of events, Ulrich kidnaps Kiwi.

At 8.10 pm in the new sequence, the gang have a conversation with Aelita.

HOWEVER - Ulrich still remembers kidnapping Kiwi - how can that be, if those events, which SHOULD be happening at this time, do not occur. Yes, we can say he has them because the supercomputer gave them to him, but how could the computer have extracted those memories from his mind in Timeline A when timeline A no longer EXISTS!

I call this the 'Back to the Future Paradox' - while stuck in 1955 Marty McFly interferes with the lives of his parents - when he gets home to 1985 he finds his meddling has transformed his previously shy, mousey and lame parents into outgoing, beautiful and succesful figures.

Here's the problem - Marty should NOT remember the original parents, because the new timeline SHOULD have morphed his memories to say 'you grew up with this amazing people as your family.'

YET, Marty's memories are those of the original timeline.

This is a paradox because there SHOULD somewhere be a Marty McFly who grew up in the new timeline, yet this Marty does not exist - where the hell did he go?

When we try and analyse Temporal Causality the general result is headaches.

The only straightforward answer is the hypothetical law of Temporal Integretity, that the universe allows for such paradoxes as long as there is a ghost or remnant of the original timeline coexisting with the new one.

Now, as for the 'Destructive Interferance' business - it works!

It's fiction, but it's good fiction, that a death in Timeline A will cause a death in Timeline B, and makes nice pseudo-science sense because destructive interface actually occurs in wave harmonics.

Also, can anyone give any other suggestion as to why the RTTP can't restore people to life without bringing in the concept of the soul? We now also know that the supercomputer does not return the data of everyone who witnessed an attack, based on the prequel, so the old explanation of 'the computer brings dead people back to the past and overwrites their living minds' no longer washes.

Finally, the 'destructive interferance' concept will be alluded to later in Season Three with reference to the supercomputer, so there's in-show evidence for this occurance. I won't go into further details, but what I saw PROVES it.

[Reesane offline]

The Eureaka Takion/Zepton partical exelerator sheads som light onto this. The persons conshios is sent back in time, and then the only reson a paredox is created is if somthing major changes, like brining someone back to life. When the consions is sent back, it takes with it the memorys of the past events, even if the tecnicly never hapend. Befor I go of into a tangent on metta phsics, I wills sum this all up by saing that the human causios + memorys may be capeble of existing independent of the time streem.

[TB3]

The Eureaka Takion/Zepton partical exelerator sheads som light onto this. The persons conshios is sent back in time, and then the only reson a paredox is created is if somthing major changes, like brining someone back to life. When the consions is sent back, it takes with it the memorys of the past events, even if the tecnicly never hapend. Befor I go of into a tangent on metta phsics, I wills sum this all up by saing that the human causios + memorys may be capeble of existing independent of the time streem.

I accept that to an extend as it is an example of the 'ghost-timeline fragment' case - I just apply it to a larger example.

We established for the purposes of SAPs and the Sensor Array that the real world leaves an imprint on Zero-Point-Space, and since Zero-Point-Space is on an entitrely different plane of existance to our own, it makes sense to me that it could maintain a 'Quantum Ghost' of the original timeline.

This indeed is similar to a Qubit, so for a simple metaphor, why not say that Timeline A and Timeline B are simply two GIGANTIC Qubits, between which constructive and destructive interferance can occur, just as happens with the smaller qubits used in Quantum Computing.

With this in mind, it possibly lays this debate to rest, as it not only makes good sense in terms of technobabble and psuedo-science, but also makes for elegant imagery - the idea of the universe mimicking the supercomputer's qubits (or vice-versa) is a basic application of the classic parable 'As above, So below' - i.e. that there are fundamental universal laws and models which everything within obey (for example how an atom is a perfect model of a solar system).

[Reesane offline]

That reminds me..... You seem to have probles with the mind bogling amount of hardisk space it wouls take to store an person on a computer? well-(Befor I prosed any further, I need to make serten that someone in the audence has played Myst, Preferably the origenal or Riven.)

[Taelia offline]

Ooh, lengthy.

Also, I do wanna point out that the memory rentention is caused primarily by the first-ever virtualization process of a person. (ex. Sissi, Ulrich, or Yumi).

[TB3]

That reminds me..... You seem to have probles with the mind bogling amount of hardisk space it wouls take to store an person on a computer? well-(Befor I prosed any further, I need to make serten that someone in the audence has played Myst, Preferably the origenal or Riven.)

No, I never played Myst myself, but of late I've given thought to memory systems and have a solution, once which combines the use of very advanced (but scientifically accurate) technology (many thanks to Chupathingy for teaching me about alternate means of data storage), with Franz's unique modifications to boost capacity, coupled with an application of Qubits to the memory storage systems.

And Taelia, a person does not need to be virtualised in order to get on the 'memory retention list', just scanned - that way the computer can analyse their minds and 'tag' them.

[Reesane offline]

....Or Lyoko could be a generated world in a.... Dont have a word for it....... That the super computer modifys thru the towers. In Myst, a world pre exists and you creat a link to it. Once you creat that link, however, the world can be altered modifying the origenal disciption of the world that you wish. If the main link is distroyed (Ie. in this case, the super computer is turnd of) the world is damaged or distroyed.

[TB3]

....Or Lyoko could be a generated world in a.... Dont have a word for it....... That the super computer modifys thru the towers. In Myst, a world pre exists and you creat a link to it. Once you creat that link, however, the world can be altered modifying the origenal disciption

I don't know if this applies - Myst seems to me to be based on magic, and Lyoko is just a computer program, despite the attempts of some fans to introduce 'magic' and 'destiny' to it (vomits).

[Taelia offline]

I meant scanned. Sorry!

[Reesane offline]

....Or Lyoko could be a generated world in a.... Dont have a word for it....... That the super computer modifys thru the towers. In Myst, a world pre exists and you creat a link to it. Once you creat that link, however, the world can be altered modifying the origenal disciption

I don't know if this applies - Myst seems to me to be based on magic, and Lyoko is just a computer program, despite the attempts of some fans to introduce 'magic' and 'destiny' to it (vomits).

What I said was that the SC "Generats" a perelal world, and the eddits it thrue a conection. Thuse, Less space is used in the actual computer itself. Myst's only non-scientifc property is the linking books, which are efectivly a computer program which sends the use into another space time, which is more Sci-fi less fanticy.

Second, I was using it as a metafor.

[Chupathingy 42 offline]

No. the general concensistes is that Lyoko is just a partical simulation of a world. I'm starting to think it's nopt just some random world made as a safe haven for Franz and Aelita, but one that is moddled after the hardware and software of the actual supercomputer, but descised in most cases to look like a pardise.

to try and say it simple...

Lyoko only exest in the super computer, and if I'm right, it's a phical represition of the supercomputer and it's data in the orm of a world, but while it's dependent on the super computer, the computer is not dependent on it.

it's not like lyoko exest on some other plane... hech what we see doesn't exest... it's just a 3d image. there is no hidden small spear that contains lyoko, no dimentional connect, nothing like that. Lyoko, and anyone on it are the super computer's equvlent to 1s and 0s... which I think acording to TB3 is like base 11 or 12 by now... so that's 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B, and maybe C (if you are wondering how letters can be numbers like that... i'll explain in my next post or someone who understands the concept of this, and thignks like Hexadecimal can)

And about the whole time trave thing, basicly the anlogy of a tape rewinding could work... but at the same time there are residual images of the old time like that alow the supercomputer to grow stronger. the only other thing these ghost do is posibly kill people... and that I will not get in to now... as I have to get ready for work

[AmericanLyokoTeam offline]

Since we deal so heavily in particle manipulation, is it too much of a stretch to venture that the supercomputer could form somewhere an incredibly miniature universe built with these formed and organized building blocks? It would follow the rules of a computer simulation since the computer and the particle manipulation systems would be what holds it together. When the power to the system fails the blocks start losing their cohesiveness thus what you see in (fill in episode name with the nuclear battery when I remember it later).

However, personally, a simulation is more likely, since holding together basic particles is an added and wasteful step. I'm just trying to add some food for thought.

[Cassius335 offline]

Now, as for the 'Destructive Interferance' business - it works!

It's fiction, but it's good fiction, that a death in Timeline A will cause a death in Timeline B, and makes nice pseudo-science sense because destructive interface actually occurs in wave harmonics.

Tiny problem: You're trying to take a simple concept (two sound waves cancelling each other out) and use it to brush a MUCH more complex system (the fabric of Space/Time) under the carpet. In sound terms, you're trying to cancel out out an orchestra when some of the instruments aren't even playing with the same songsheets anymore (due to the changed memories and actions of the Lyoko Warriors). You say in another post:

Lyoko is just a computer program, despite the attempts of some fans to introduce 'magic' and 'destiny' to it (vomits).

Thing is, that's exactly what you're trying to do. To me, cancelling out a persons brain because it happened in the last universe (despite a persons thoughts possibly being different, let alone position) IS 'destiny'.

And that's without getting into random time disturbances and the like.

Also, can anyone give any other suggestion as to why the RTTP can't restore people to life without bringing in the concept of the soul?

Admittedly, no, though I doubt 'soul' would come into it.

Finally, the 'destructive interferance' concept will be alluded to later in Season Three with reference to the supercomputer, so there's in-show evidence for this occurance. I won't go into further details, but what I saw PROVES it.

I almost hate to ask: Was this something as a result of the LTT article or something they were already planning?

[Rail Runner offline]

Ok...if we take the Back to the Future reference..they had that alternate 1985 timeline where Biff ruled everything...if Marty continued to stay in that timeline without grabbing that almanac, things would have been very different.

Now lets apply this to RTTP...if they wouldnt RTTP...the alternate timeline would be the new timeline..but since they do RTTP...they essentially take it back to where the time line offically split. and kept it on the original path...I think the erasing of memories was just sort of a consequence of going back in time..hence the reason why the group had to scan themselves so they could remember what they did.

[TB3]

Ok...if we take the Back to the Future reference..they had that alternate 1985 timeline where Biff ruled everything...if Marty continued to stay in that timeline without grabbing that almanac, things would have been very different.

This is one of the more weirder moments in Back to the Future - Marty and Doc retained memories of a non-existant timeline, yet neither of them, or the DeLorean (which by rights should have vanished as well) were erased (it should be noted that there is another Doc Brown and Marty 'Tannen' in 'Hell Valley' who presumably never met) - however given that it took Marty a week to fade out after breaking up his parents first meeting, maybe it is simply a period of time during which the Ripple Effect is in action.

Either that or (again) a ghost of the original timeline allowed for their continued existance. Against that though is the point that this should have prevented Marty ceasing to exist in 1955, when we did see him start to erase (also a cut scene from BTTF2 showed old Biff being erased in 2015 after returning the DeLorean, because in the new timeline Lorraine shot him some time around 1991).

I'd like to also point out that the screenwriters, Bob Gale and Bob Zemeckis, later rejected their concept of 'Erasure' because they considered it unworkable, though both as I recall held onto the concept of a Paradox.

Now lets apply this to RTTP...if they wouldnt RTTP...the alternate timeline would be the new timeline..but since they do RTTP...they essentially take it back to where the time line offically split. and kept it on the original path...I think the erasing of memories was just sort of a consequence of going back in time..hence the reason why the group had to scan themselves so they could remember what they did.

I don't see what you're driving at that has been already said there really STI.

Cassius, this Quantum Interferance incident in the show was written beforehand, but proves the concept has validity in CL - and frankly, I'm sick to the back teeth of this argument.

Temporal Mechanics don't F**king exist guys, so we can't have a definative answer, and why do we have to beat around the bush when we have a plausible answer that explains why people die etc, that is concurrence with the established plot and imagery of the show.

Re the 'destiny' bit - I have suggested a means of saving said person, so there is a way to change the future, negating the destiny concept.

The other problem I have Cassius is that no-one can give a better alternate method to the Destructive Interferance argument, which I will stand by.

[Rail Runner offline]

I agree with you on the Temperal stuff...its just not gonna work even though the answer to the first part has already been presented.