S3 Episode 15: Xana Awakens - Part 2

[Vora Lyoko offline]

Kankrelats bouncing over the platforms! Gaaah. I want one as a pet.

So do I...they're such cute little vermin...

I'm gonna call it Fluffy, and it will be mine. And it will be my Fluffy.

You could call it Mr. Squishy...

If I had to pick a monster for a pet it would be nobody....
Though Kankerlats are...cute...sort of...ok not really...but their funny...some amusement for me when I wake up cranky...

I'm not sure whether I should be amused or disturbed by the idea of them having slight personalities...but they're tragically funny.

Same here....*shudders* Did they have their funny parts in Season 1?

I don't think so.....

I have to admit the Kankerlats were the funniest thing in "Ultimatum" I tihnk it was "Ultimatum".

I still giggle at the thought.

[Keiji offline]

The Kankrelats and Bloks are hilarious at times, but moreso in Season 1. I was watching a ton of S1 episodes a couple days ago and remembered just how awesome it was. I mean, where S2 is all focused on plot and Franz Hopper and Carthage and the Scyphozoa and whatnot, it seems they forgot about the humor, the variations, the awesome Lyoko battles. People say S1 is all "school, XANA attack, lyoko, RTTP", but I say S2 is all "scyphozoa, carthage, back to the scyphozoa". S3 seems to be fixing this at last. Let's hope they keep it up.

[Mewberries151]

Lol, roll on part 2 Animenologist - you and Mew are making for very good reading - great to see two of LF's mightiest minds rolling up their sleeves for a verbal Battle Royale!

Aww, you're too kind. But thanks!

Is it pretty much becoming tradition that a large and lengthy debate will involve the two of us taking relatively opposing sides? This is what, our 4th or 5th debate? Or maybe I can't seem to reach a balance between talking too little or talking too much. Oh well.

Indeed, I think this is the 5th...with the last one being about "Franz Hopper" and it's contents I believe. ^^;

No worries on the "talking to little or too much" thing though. I'm terribly guilty of making really long, novel-length posts too...in addition to making short, usually hyper comments as well. ^^;

But given a totally different scenario or a totally different outcome and suddenly, everything becomes acceptable. She followed her heart and decided to tattle. What would happen if they were losing and all of them about to be roasted. Jim and Principal Delmas comes in, and in some way, shape, or form, manages to save them. Would she still have been wrong to blab? In the end, the consequences proved to be out of Sissi's favor and that caused them to turn on her, but the fact that she tattled was not a total justification for their scorn.

Hmmm...perhaps if her tattling had actually helped in some way, they wouldn't have gotten quite so mad...but I honestly don't see what involving herself, the Principal and Jim would have done to help in any sort of way. Jim sort of even proves it, having run right out into the room and getting himself electrocuted as well. The only possibility would have been Sissi virtualizing herself to give the group a hand in Lyoko...but since the super computer was unreachable and the only one who knew how to work it at the time was unconscious...I don't find that a likely scenario either.

I don't see there being any true way involving her dad and Jim would have proved advantageous. Her dad and Jim were completely skeptical, and Jim effectively got himself put "out of action" anyway, so he would have been no help at that point.

Now, I don't think she involved them merely because she was completely irate at the fact that they didn't believe her (and we all know how Sissi hates to not be taken seriously, or for her word). I am sure that her motivations were mostly out of concern...but it could stand to reason that she brought her dad and Jim along (and Nurse Dorothy) in a sort of child-like, "See, I told you" mindset...at least in some small part. It's the same sort of motivation that is seen in "Exploration". Sissi likes to prove she's right about things (nothing wrong in that really...just that her approach is disadvantageous to the groups' functions).

Again...I don't think that was her primary motivation...but it could have been a secondary.

Take as a real-world hypothetical. My sibling has secretly gotten involved in illicit activity, and I want to get him out of trouble discreetly. My friend, somehow gotten word of it, in which I had sworn him to secrecy. It turns out that I'm about to to get into a situation that may turn out lethal. My friend goes and contacts the authorities without my knowledge. Is he in the wrong? Whether or not it ultimately was wrong, I guess would depend on the consequences, but you can't blame my friend for following his conscience anymore than you can blame Sissi.

No...I wouldn't blame your friend there for following his conscious...however, on the flip side, I wouldn't blame you either for getting mad or frustrated with him (this is, hypothetically speaking that you would) for telling on you and getting you into trouble as well.

I guess what my arguement here is, is that if one can't blame Sissi for doing what she felt was right, it isn't fair to blame the others for getting mad at her for feeling she betrayed their trust (which is in essence, regardless of motives, what she did). Their hurt is justified, because she really would have messed things up for them...and it isn't fair to fault them for that, in my opinion, over faulting Sissi for blabbing and then asking for the super computer to be shut down.

And since neither parties can be blamed in that respect...the only real blame comes down to XANA...for being a pill in the first place. ^^

And for Seeing is Believing, what ultimately happened when Yumi decided to tell? She failed and costed the gang a third warrior. She couldn't convince the firemen, police, or principal what was going on and her decision to tell placed them at a disadvantage. Couldn't it be interpretted as Yumi breaking under the pressure and forcing the gang to come forth, just as Sissi has been accused of doing in this episode? Had she never spoken up, they would of been in the scanners sooner, had more defenders on Lyoko, and possibly have been done sooner and not have cut it so close.

Yumi's scenario in "Seeing is Believing" is the absolute antithesis though, I feel, of Sissi's predicament in "XANA Awakens".

The key to Yumi's situation is that she suggested they tell someone about the impending attack on the power plant...because nuclear fallout is completely over their heads (and would have caused thousands upon thousands of deaths and casualties, just at Chernobyl did, if they hadn't stopped it in time).

After her suggestion, and Jeremie's initial disagreement with it, they put it to a vote as to whether or not they should warn the authorities about the attack on the power plant and the cause.

The polls are closed: They decide to tell them.

That's a group decision, based on a majority albeit...and the fact that if anyone's to decide what happens to the super computer, it's Aelita.

What's even more to Yumi's credit is that she starts out by telling the fireman only that the electricity in that pylon was going to be used to blow-up the plant. She mentions nothing of XANA or the super computer at all until she is absolutely forced to by the firemans' reluctance to believe her and their insistance that she say how she knows, in addition to the fact that time was running out (with many more deaths than just the group's on the line).

Sissi acted of her own. There was no group vote (well, actually there was..."to not tell anyone") and she started talking about Lyoko and the super computer nearly as soon as she woke up. Yumi's situation shows not only more restraint and forethought then Sissi's, but also care towards her friends and their opinions and feelings.

That's where the key differences are that makes Yumi's scenario so different from Sissi's.

That actually reminds of a Sissi discussion I posted in a few months ago when I made references to Sissi being similar to Helga G. Pataki from Hey Arnold! Yes if she really wanted to get in close, half the things she did in Season 1 were not 2 steps back, but 10. If Sissi wanted to get closer, she shouldn't have done this and she shouldn't have done that. If Helga wanted to get closer to Arnold, she shouldn't shoot spitballs at him, shouldn't constantly threaten him with old Betsy, shouldn't constantly be calling him football head, shouldn't basically treat him like dirt throughout 4th grade. The method was wrong, just as Sissi's, yet she was brought up to a sympathetic character. She just didn't know how to communicate herself to Arnold.

Similar argument can be made of Sissi. Afterall, they started to be mean to her because of things she doesn't even remember doing. And nothing she could do seems to be working, so she had to try other, more devious methods. The gang already doesn't mind being mean to Sissi for the sake of being mean. Take Big Bug for example. Ulrich and Odd play a joke on her and humiliate her. She takes her revenge by uncovering Kiwi to Jim. What do they do? They think her totally at fault and not only played the joke again, they made it worse, and decided to take pictures. The nice thing to do, would just to stop the prank before it started, but no, they just decided to be mean.

I must give you kudos for the "Hey Arnold" reference. I loved that show, and I do believe that Sissi and Ulrich's situation is a nice parallel to that of Helga and Arnold's...the only big difference being, well, Yumi (and Ruth and Lila do not count... ). ^^;

However, while the argument is similar, "Big Bug" is a bad example for it. Ulrich and Odd play the joke on her because earlier in the episode, Sissi had been tormenting Millie and Tamiya again about their crushes, particularly of Millie's for Ulrich.

This seems to make it a sort of "Robin Hood" parallel almost, at least in terms of "making a strike for the 'little guy'". I'm not saying that the prank was justified (indeed, turning the other cheek would have solved just about any scenario between Sissi and the gang, and on both sides...but that doesn't make for good humor ^^).

And while Sissi's actions towards the group can be explained away as being her reaction to their giving her the "cold shoulder"...as well as her own way of showing affection for Ulrich, I've still yet to hear a completely convincing arguement as to why Sissi would be justified in her actions towards Millie and Tamiya, who can't even be connected to anything in the prequel either (as they're not in it at all).

Not letting her into the gang, I agree. Failing to see it from her POV and holding it to her after she forgets it entirely, is another thing. She couldn't handle it, thats fine, don't let her be a Lyoko warrior. But did Ulrich really needs to say he'll be sticking with his "real friends."

This ties into what I said about the "hypothetical illicit activity" example you gave about your sibling, your friend, and yourself.

Like I said, Ulrich's trust was likely hurt by this, and just as I would not fault you in your hypothetical situation, for getting mad at your friend and being angry with him for some time after, I cannot fault Ulrich here either (nor the rest of the gang).

I mean, thinking hypothetically again, while you couldn't rightly blame your friend for doing what he felt right, wouldn't you still be angry with him for breaking his promise and getting you into a great deal of possibly dangerous trouble? And, wouldn't you then afterwards for a time, not want to talk to that person, or spend time with that person, not only just because of the anger, but because of the hurt?

The way sentience is defined, we as human-kind don't hold much stock in that either. A cow is defined as sentient, and we'd sooner slaughter it for hamburger, than fight for its right to eat grass. Anything that is self-aware of itself is considered sentient, but only one of which we actually consider of any decent self-worth, humans.

And again the fact that mankind as it currently stands have no major feelings of concern for the self-worth of non-human sentience, means that Sissi shouldn't be blamed for taking one popular side over the other. The only thing she did wrong that deserved disdain, but not necessarily complete abandonment, is the fact that she abandoned them to side with her father. That error is not immediately forgiveable, but I'm sure it should be easy enough since technically, now she never commited it.

Hmm, that is a valid point in mentioning the slaughter of animals for food...however, one can argue that this is done merely for survival (as it secures food, a necessity for life).

Aelita's not a cow...so there's no "we're doing this for food" ideal involved here. And while it could be argued that it was done for "survival" because the super computer is/was indeed very dangerous to society. But she was a human...or at least, to their knowledge, a humanoid.

It's interesting because these are the same debates that could be applied to movies like "I, Robot" or even more to the point, "AI". If something looks and acts human, should it be considered one?

But this is philosophy, and since everyone will have a different opinion, it would be truly hard to both fault Sissi or exempt her from her actions, as it's all in personal opinion.

This is completely besides the point, but as a vegetarian...I'm really not fond of slaughter houses for animals either...particularly ones in which the animals are mistreated.

But that's another arguement for something else entirely.

It should stand to reason though that Sissi's agreement to allow the super computer to be shut down does say something of her beliefs and her character, just as the rest of the group's agreement to keep it on says something of theirs. Jeremie and the others believed that Aelita's life was as important as any actual human's life, whereas Sissi seemingly did not.

In response to her "siding with her father" though, that was an added sting as far as I'm concerned. Just as one would be furious at a friend for siding with the authorities in the "hypothetical real world" scenario, so too were Team Lyoko.

And to say that because it technically never happened, isn't precisely fair to the group's feelings, as they still know what happened, and the hurt could still be there, as well as the justified reluctance to give her another go at making the same mistake.

I suppose it is a forgiveable offense, but forgiveness in itself is a tricky and very personal thing. Jeremie, ironically, seems to forgive Sissi first, though he by all means, had the most right really to be angry with her. He shows concern for her and a great deal of maturity and responsibility not more than three episodes later in "Holiday in the Fog", where he tells Ulrich and Yumi that she's trapped inside with Jim.

Ulrich then proceeds to go in and try to help her (and Jim) at risk to his own life. So obviously, while he could still be mad and not ready to forgive her for breaking the group's trust...it's not getting in the way of his sense of "what's right".

One argument I never like and never will use in discussion is that she's just a cartoon character, unless someone has lost all ties to reality. Never liked the, its just a game, never liked its just a book, never liked, its just fiction. If the discussion is serious, I'll take it seriously.

Agreed. And I feel precisely the same here about that kind of "waving away" a debate/discussion, particularly when it's done by uninvolved parties. It's actually very complimentary of the show if it can give creation to debates on topics like this.

Just as Aelita's "suicide" was heavily debated, this scenario, which deals with a very realistic, and easily applicable case of broken trust and human anger and hurt, this one deserves a fair and serious look.

And I absolutely can't stand that. I honestly feel that the only person/entity who should be allowed to decide whether to sacrifice their existence or not, is the being itself. No one else should have the right to make that choice, at least that's what I believe.

Sissi was making the choice to sacrifice Aelita. Not Aelita herself...and Sissi did not appear to care that Aelita wouldn't be involved in the matter at all. That just does not sit right with me in terms of character.

And obviously, the adults were about to handle it all wrong. Not only were they telling Jeremie to shut the super computer down, but they were going to call the police. That would have gotten Jeremie in trouble (as he'd been salvaging parts there), but likely would have resulted in the destruction of the super computer and the true death of Aelita. Humans destroy what they don't understand...that's just a sad truth for the most part.

Yes it is sometimes sad, but that is the reality of the situation. And you have to take things into the context of the current setting. The founding fathers of America were considered some of the greatest political thinkers in our country's history and yet a good deal of them were slaveowners. Now according to our modern thinking, slavery is considered a universal error. But we will not go back and say that the people back them were evil, just because they lived in a time where the reality is, slavery was acceptable. The current reality, whether right or wrong (and I'm not saying either is correct), is that ones sentience does not guarantee self-worth or a right to the same things we normally believe human beings are entitled to.[/quote]

Slavery is an interesting comparison, as indeed, that's a brilliant case of where the question of "what is a sentient/human being?" was put into play.

I suppose what it comes down to is, is that humans evolve and develop new ideals as to what is sentient and what is human as time passes on.

However, there are always some people who are far ahead of the "popular thought" in terms of how life should be valued, and this is the case with Jeremie and his friends, in my opinion. Where Sissi, as well as the authorities, seem to be in sync with the popular contemporary idea of "what is human", Jeremie and his friends are already way evolved in thought and ideals past those notions.

And that's all of the stuff you addressed towards me. I actually do have a few things I would like to say concerning your points towards TB3, but maybe I should let him have his say first.

That and if I reply to your thoughts on TB3 points as well, the post will put everyone who reads it to sleep due to its length.

Behold! The cure for Insomnia! Read a post debate at LF.

The safe-shut down actually does make sense and I could guess Jeremie never found out how, probably had something to do with Carthage, and as we know, the inner workings of Lyoko had remained a mystery for a good deal of time and even after its discovery, only sorta trickled out, so they probably never found the right way to shut it off, just how to pull the plug, which a lot of my friends constantly warn me I shouldn't do with my own computer.

That's precisely my thinking here. Most people will tell you that shutting off a computer directly from the switch, without going through the proper process of shutting it down, is not at all good for one's computer. As we don't know the circumstances under which the computer was originally shut down (perhaps an internal last ditch effort by Franz Hopper?)...it's very hard to say whether or not there is a "safe way" to shut the super computer down, even with the theories that have been suggested. Since the super computer has never fully been explained (although Jeremie's definitely tried ^^), it's a very tough call to make.

Is there a safe shut off? I think it's plausible that there would be. The Super Computer is a computer at heart, so there's no reason why it couldn't work in similar ways to an ordinary PC (which also explains why Jeremie could figure it out so in the time that he did...if it was completely foreign in function, it'd have taken much longer just to get the screens going...Jeremie's good but...honestly, now ^^ ).

What exactly does shutting the computer off (one way or another) do to Lyoko and Aelita? Again, there's conjecture, but nothing's for sure, as the evidences we have don't exactly match up. Aelita survived the initial "shut-off", however that was done, but general consensus with in the group seemed to be that it would be deadly a second time around (perhaps, just as repeatedly turning one's computer off by pulling the plug increases the chance of a similar misfortune).

And I actually say you're somewhat half-right. We as humans sometimes destroy what we fear, which is usually related to what we don't understand. But at the same time, we're are a curious creature, constantly seeking more and more, for good or for ill. The Feds may have come in and dismantled it, but the they could of easily decided to put it up for study. Within the workings of the supercomputer, it contained 5 pieces of technology with the potential to revolutionize the world. Virtualization would revolutionize scanning and medical technology and would be better than even our most powerful electron microscopes or reconstructive surgery. XANA would be the ultimate military weapon. Aelita is an artificial intelligence unheard of and unthought, even a decade later after creation (again taken at the current time set). Materialization would end so many economic hardships on the world, including world hunger and would alleviate some the costs to industrialize 3rd world nations. And a time machine (compact too), possibly the height of all scientific creation. The odds are, once the capabilities of the supercomputer are known, its unlikely they're going to dimantle it for parts, its going to be studied to its finest detail.

The other risk though, is that, in taking it in for study, it'd accidentally be destroyed, perhaps by some mistake, or perhaps by communal fear or terrorism (the sci-fi movie "Contact" comes to mind here).

Whatever way it worked out though, the problem would be that Jeremie and his friends would still be in huge trouble for not reporting it, and Jeremie more so because he'd been in the Factory (which I'm sure was "condemned" at that point), and "salvaging" scrap metal, no less. ^^

What's more, Aelita would be lost to them one way or another; destroyed along with the super computer, or lost to the prison-like life of scientific study, which honestly, would probably be an even sadder fate, as scientists are not always caring in their methods of study.

Incidentally...materialization wouldn't solve world hunger. World hunger is an issue not because of lack of supplies (this planet has way more than enough resources to feed its current population, and at least a couple billion more)...but because of a lack of a way to get supplies to the places that need them.

But it was Yumi who brought it up in the first place. Had she not raised her voice to the matter, no one else would of stepped up. By raising her voice, she brought forth discontent in the group for what ultimately what was a fruitless effort. The motive was well-intended, but in the end, didn't the consequence show it wasn't worth it?

And it seems that you are implying that her not giving out Lyoko was an admirable quality in Yumi's attempt of sounding the alarm. But realize that of the several attempts to raise the alarm about Lyoko, she was one of the ones who wasn't successful. And you could say, that cost her in the end. Had it not been for her friends, she wouldn't have made it. Compare it to Sissi in XANA's Awaken or Taelia in The Girl of the Dreams or even Jeremie to Sissi in Ultimatum. And last I remember, I don't believe Jeremie placed it to a vote before telling Sissi, Jim, or Taelia. In what way is Jeremie justified, but Sissi isn't? In what way is Sissi deserving of Season-wide scorn and Jeremie isn't?

Actually...I highly disapproved of Jeremie's actions in "Girl of the Dreams". It was out of character for him, as he's usually terribly guarded about that. It has been argued though that this was because he had not been sleeping and was therefor both delusional and perhaps mildly insane (as I think one can become clinically insane after missing sleep for 48 hours or so). Therefore, he can get off on the "plead insanity" excuse...just as Sissi can also be somewhat excused by the fact that she'd been electrocuted only hours before.

As for "Ultimatum", Aelita was there with Jeremie during that revelation, and obviously had no reservations about it. As she is the one who will directly suffer in the event of the computer being shut off, I'd say she has the most right to say who gets to know and who doesn't.

Going back to Yumi in "Seeing is Believing", indeed, she brought it up first, but all she said was that an attack of nuclear proportions was way over their heads in terms of danger, which indeed it was. That attack would have been devastating, not even just to France. The fallout from the explosion easily could have killed hundreds of thousands depending on where the wind was blowing...and it would have spread everywhere, possibly causing even more disease and crop failure. It would have been deadly in every sense of the word. One could actually almost get frustrated with Jeremie's reluctance to do anything about it, when one considers how devastating that attack would have been.

In any case, her attempt only failed because the authorities she had to deal with were incredibly stubborn, skeptical, and in all honesty, rather dense, in my opinion.

Sissi's blabbing worked...Jim and the Principal found the Factory, and then proceeded to try and shut it down. What's more, Sissi's warning also did nothing, if not, even less of nothing than Yumi's as Sissi now had involved two other people into a dangerous situation, whereas Yumi put only herself on the line in an attempt to save thousands more (no one else went with her)

I think it is admirable though, that Yumi tried to convince them without mentioning Lyoko, as that shows how concerned she was about revealing Aelita's existence and putting her in danger. Sissi talked right from the start, and again, she really didn't care what happened to the super computer, so in terms of handling the situation, while both were futile in goals, Yumi handled hers better, particularly considering that the stakes were far higher. Yumi also understood that talking about the super computer wasn't going to help her case much anyway, as clearly the authorities just thought she was really nuts then. I'm sure Sissi knew though, that her father would follow her, if she went after them, regardless of whether he believed her or not. She definitely didn't make much of an effort to keep Lyoko a secret.

I would argue that Season 1, part of the problem with Sissi is that she may be reciprocating the distrust she felt from the others, for reasons she can not possibly know. But other than that, her actions from Season 1 to early Season 2 hindered any thought of her once again becoming part of her team once again. She's already show herself unable to handle danger, she can't keep a secret, and she doesn't harmonize well with group dynamics nor can she see past her own insecurities and desires to try and work within the group. She would have to really start making up to even be considered for another chance. And Ultimatum, Missing Link, and to some extent, St. Valentines Day is starting to make it up.

Agreed, somewhat...although I still do not understand her contempt for Millie and Tamiya (other than that they dare have a crush on "her Ulrich").

And I agree that her actions in season 2 have greatly made up for her past transgressions in the eyes of the group, as one can see that clearly Ulrich is not even nearly as bothered by her as he used to be.

But in the end, all I would think that should be required of her is absolute insurance that she will keep the secret. Both Ulrich, Yumi, and Aelita have shown feelings that better she be allowed to die if it allows for the greater good. Again, Seeing is Believing, Just in Time, and Aelita did shut down the supercomputer knowing it would kill Franz Hopper inside as well as herself in The Key. So if Aelita can do that, I say, I don't care what Sissi thinks as long as she can work with the team and not betray them again, let her join.

"Seeing is Believing", again, though, doesn't show that Yumi feels that Aelita is "expendable", in my opinion. Because she does everything she can to avoid mentioning Lyoko in her report to the authorities, she obviously would rather not lose Aelita under any circumstance.

I'm not sure what the Ulrich example would be, other than his one quote in "XANA Awakens" (which has an interesting explanation in of itself).

And Aelita's "attempted suicide/patricide" in "The Key" is a slightly different debate in itself (one I think the both of us also had actually ^^ ) as are her moments of "martyrdom" throughout various season 1 and 2 episodes. The martyrdoms in particular, were likely caused by Aelita's own misgivings and value of her own worth...as she had no memory of her human life in season 1. What's more, it might also reflect on her devotion and love for her friends, in that she'd rather suffer than see them hurt or killed. That's usually considered a noble thing, at the very least by Hollywood standards at any rate.

Can't really say much about the rest you wrote other than I actually agree 100%. Is this is a first? Hope it doesn't happen too often, otherwise I won't be able to write such lengthy responses anymore. And I so do enjoy reading what you have to write.

I wouldn't say it's a first, persay. I'm sure that there's been some from of agreements during our debates in the past. *giggles*

But thank you very much though! ^_^ I highly enjoyed reading your responses to my own posts. I do hope I have not disappointed you with my latest responses...particularly in terms of grammar and spelling. *sweatdrop* ^^;

[animenologist offline]

Hmmm...perhaps if her tattling had actually helped in some way, they wouldn't have gotten quite so mad...but I honestly don't see what involving herself, the Principal and Jim would have done to help in any sort of way. Jim sort of even proves it, having run right out into the room and getting himself electrocuted as well. The only possibility would have been Sissi virtualizing herself to give the group a hand in Lyoko...but since the super computer was unreachable and the only one who knew how to work it at the time was unconscious...I don't find that a likely scenario either.

I don't see there being any true way involving her dad and Jim would have proved advantageous. Her dad and Jim were completely skeptical, and Jim effectively got himself put "out of action" anyway, so he would have been no help at that point.

Now, I don't think she involved them merely because she was completely irate at the fact that they didn't believe her (and we all know how Sissi hates to not be taken seriously, or for her word). I am sure that her motivations were mostly out of concern...but it could stand to reason that she brought her dad and Jim along (and Nurse Dorothy) in a sort of child-like, "See, I told you" mindset...at least in some small part. It's the same sort of motivation that is seen in "Exploration". Sissi likes to prove she's right about things (nothing wrong in that really...just that her approach is disadvantageous to the groups' functions).

Again...I don't think that was her primary motivation...but it could have been a secondary.

That's the thing about hindsight, its always 20/20. True, in the end, it ultimately did absolutely nothing but hurt the gang in the end. But try deciding that at the time you make the decision and from Sissi's eyes. You don't know the entirety of the situation, you don't know what can be done, you feel you have to do something. Sissi couldn't do anything, but felt it better to tell someone than do nothing. And given the situation at the time, it turned out wrong, but given an entirely different situation, the connection to their usefulness may have been different. Just because you didn't see it for this example, didn't mean thats the way it will always be. Afterall, I don't exactly see how at the time of Ultimatum, telling Sissi would of done much, because I wouldn't know how to connect escaping the police and Sissi, other than their problem was identified as Sissi's father. Who would of thought right there and then that Sissi would fake a bomb threat to help them out? I know I didn't.

And usually, secondary motivations should be left untold, otherwise I would probably have a few choice words to say Aelita in The Key. Though her primary reason for her actions was to save all her friends from XANA, her secondary reason was probably to lash out against her father in anger. And then there is her actions in Missing Link. While primarily, you can say Aelita did it to help out Yumi, it can be argued that she did it to prove to Jeremie that she's a big girl or that Jeremie should be able to fully trust her judgement. The fact that she basically just made the decision on her own without allowing Jeremie a word in edgewise, actually sounds a lot like Sissi. But anyways, I rather not start judging by ones secondary motivations.

No...I wouldn't blame your friend there for following his conscious...however, on the flip side, I wouldn't blame you either for getting mad or frustrated with him (this is, hypothetically speaking that you would) for telling on you and getting you into trouble as well.

I guess what my arguement here is, is that if one can't blame Sissi for doing what she felt was right, it isn't fair to blame the others for getting mad at her for feeling she betrayed their trust (which is in essence, regardless of motives, what she did). Their hurt is justified, because she really would have messed things up for them...and it isn't fair to fault them for that, in my opinion, over faulting Sissi for blabbing and then asking for the super computer to be shut down.

And since neither parties can be blamed in that respect...the only real blame comes down to XANA...for being a pill in the first place. ^^

Still, isn't it best to forgive and forget. Yes, if it was me, I'd be a bit peeved at my friend for going against what I asked him to do, but it wouldn't be right for me to stay mad, if it was done with the best intentions. That would just be me holding a grudge, and holding grudges usually leads to more problems later down the line. I'm sure Jeremie felt a bit angry at Yumi when she basically went against his decision and tried to force the issue, but atleast he didn't stay mad. They really should of given Sissi that chance. Who knows, maybe if time had not been reset, Sissi would of been sorry about her actions and would of sought out atonement.

Yumi's scenario in "Seeing is Believing" is the absolute antithesis though, I feel, of Sissi's predicament in "XANA Awakens".

The key to Yumi's situation is that she suggested they tell someone about the impending attack on the power plant...because nuclear fallout is completely over their heads (and would have caused thousands upon thousands of deaths and casualties, just at Chernobyl did, if they hadn't stopped it in time).

After her suggestion, and Jeremie's initial disagreement with it, they put it to a vote as to whether or not they should warn the authorities about the attack on the power plant and the cause.

The polls are closed: They decide to tell them.

That's a group decision, based on a majority albeit...and the fact that if anyone's to decide what happens to the super computer, it's Aelita.

What's even more to Yumi's credit is that she starts out by telling the fireman only that the electricity in that pylon was going to be used to blow-up the plant. She mentions nothing of XANA or the super computer at all until she is absolutely forced to by the firemans' reluctance to believe her and their insistance that she say how she knows, in addition to the fact that time was running out (with many more deaths than just the group's on the line).

Sissi acted of her own. There was no group vote (well, actually there was..."to not tell anyone") and she started talking about Lyoko and the super computer nearly as soon as she woke up. Yumi's situation shows not only more restraint and forethought then Sissi's, but also care towards her friends and their opinions and feelings.

That's where the key differences are that makes Yumi's scenario so different from Sissi's.

I feel I should disagree with you on Yumi “suggestingâ€

[Evil Ulrich offline]

I think it was cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MY85 offline]

I think it was cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great short post to f**k up the mood of the huge debate between animenologist and Mewberries and TB3 around there. Hell, I'll bite some and start pointing out stuff from their debate. Most likely, I'm gonna get ignored.

But try deciding that at the time you make the decision and from Sissi's eyes. You don't know the entirety of the situation, you don't know what can be done, you feel you have to do something. Sissi couldn't do anything, but felt it better to tell someone than do nothing. And given the situation at the time, it turned out wrong, but given an entirely different situation, the connection to their usefulness may have been different. Just because you didn't see it for this example, didn't mean thats the way it will always be. Afterall, I don't exactly see how at the time of Ultimatum, telling Sissi would of done much, because I wouldn't know how to connect escaping the police and Sissi, other than their problem was identified as Sissi's father. Who would of thought right there and then that Sissi would fake a bomb threat to help them out? I know I didn't.

Hey, take in account that you're dealing in this debate witha huge Yumi/Ulrich shipper and probably one of the most hyper CL fans worldwide. She'll counter your point since she woudln't allow Sissi to be seen as a person with something purely good. In few words, she hates Sissi.

For Sissi's decision, you also have to take in account that Sissi has been attacked by Xana before the scene with her father and Jim. Hey, many people (mostly, Y/U shippers) see Sissi as a bad girl who f**ks up the lives of the Lyoko gang, but she's not always purely bad. I'm sure she might have some good behavior with her father. And I don't know if around that time (taking in account that before TeddyGozilla, Sissi might have had a good relationship with her father) what kind of relationship Sissi had with her father. One thing is that if it was only Jim in the infirmary, probably Sissi would have had it easier to deal with. But when there's her father, would she lie to her father? She probably did that later in the seasons, but she's dealing with her father and he is the authority of the Kadic academy. Sissi was aware of how dangerous this Xana enemy could be and probably thinking that if she wouldn't run to prevent her then-allies (because none of the three saw Sissi as a long-term friend, just as someone who knew the secret, but they wouldn't think she would screw it up). But she woke up after just being attacked. Her mind wouldn't be in the right conditions to make a correct thought, and we all know Sissi isn't the kind of person who would make good thoughts or ideas in a constant dose. And she would probably take things in the easier path, which would be to shut down the computer and end up with this out-of-nowhere misery. And before Sissi blew things up, Odd almost blew the thing up. He said the word "lyoko" in the cafeteria, but for his luck, only Ulrich, Sissi and Jeremie heard him. But there wasn't many people around them by that moment.

and holding grudges usually leads to more problems later down the line. I'm sure Jeremie felt a bit angry at Yumi when she basically went against his decision and tried to force the issue, but atleast he didn't stay mad. They really should of given Sissi that chance. Who knows, maybe if time had not been reset, Sissi would of been sorry about her actions and would of sought out atonement.

I know the fact that holding a grudge against some persons isn't good. I know people who did this to me and ended up lasting over months, due to stupid things I've done before. But I'd rather not talk about it (no pun intended). Sure that Sissi might learn the truth someday and would probably be forgiven. Time passed by and they haven't hated her as much as they did during the first season. I admit I just felt a bit pissed in the way how they pointed out Sissi as a traitor, but it was well done to show why they found her so annoying.

Okay, suppose Sissi stops being unforgiven. But how would you get Sissi to believe that once they used to trust her and that she almost would have gone to Lyoko? How much can they trust Sissi? And once she gets virtualized, there's no turning back, unless Jeremie develops a hell of a program powerful enough to erase Sissi's memory (and/or damage her brain in the process) in case she screws things up seriously.

And I don't see the problem with materialization not helping solve hunger, it would recreate all the necessary supplies to transport food, vehicles, fuel, supplies for stuff like roads and services, it would help allow countries to industrilize with a relatively minor cost, thus it won't require large sums of money to put into action, only the cost of the workers. Heck, just pay a group of engineers to go and build a materialization chamber at each hungry village through a program like the Peace Corp, and it still won't have the constant costs normally associated with extended project we have currently. It may not solve everything, but it would be a great boon towards development.

Good point... but at what price would that be? Storing organic and inorganic material in Lyoko and then materializing them again? Would it come the same? Would it get alterated during materialization? And once materialization, or better yet, clonation without any alteration for compunds becomes a success and something worldwide known, WW3 will start to raise. Heck, WW3 would start for fighting for water rights and posession.

Technically, could Jeremie and Aelita be blamed of the same thing had the plan gone awry. That they brought in an innocent bystander (Sissi) in a potentially dangerous situation, when the only people at risk would of been the gang and possibly Sissi's father?

Aelita's not the one to take blame in bringing Sissi to the group during Xana Awakens. This would be a matter of chain reaction thing.

Remember, there was Sissi, Odd and Ulrich at Kadic. Ulrich's pissed off because Odd's pet trashed his stuff and bedroom. And by the time, Ulrich was told by Jeremie to get a guinea pig. Ulrich's mind let him think of Kiwi for a guinea pig as in a matter of payback to Odd, given that he felt annoyed by Odd and he crossed the line with Kiwi trashing his stuff.

Later, Sissi's waiting for Ulrich to be with and wasn't aware of the situation between Odd and Ulrich. She was tired of waiting for Ulrich, rings the mobile when Ulrich just grabbed Kiwi, Odd woke up with the mobile ring as well as Kiwi's barking just in time to see Ulrich stealing his dog. Odd chases Ulrich, giving a spear to Sissi (who was annoyed that Ulrich didn't answered her call and went straight to his bedroom) in the process. Odd runs to recover Kiwi, while Sissi gets into something that wasn't really her business (expect that her business would be getting Ulrich's affection). As the chase went on, Sissi learned that Ulrich was running away with Odd's pet.
Did she forgot that having a pet in the school is illegal? I'm sure she didn't knew that rule or wasn't aware of it to do something against Odd.
Would it make sense for her to see Ulrich running away with a dog, or something that didn't belong to him? Would she have seen Ulrich as the same way Odd did, as a thief? Would Sissi and Odd knew what would Ulrich do by taking a dog to some abandoned factory? Questions arise... but let's get back to your last quote I'm pointing at. Aelita's not to blame, I'm sure of that. And as for Jeremie, he sees Sissi in the factory and Ulrich as well. He didn't expected to see Sissi there, but at the time, Aelita was in danger and that was his biggest concern. He had no other choice but to trust Sissi at the moment to get some aid for Aelita.
To answer your point, Ulrich and Jeremie were the ones to blame in this event.

And that's my bite of the debate. Sorry for butting in.

[Mewberries151]

That's the thing about hindsight, its always 20/20. True, in the end, it ultimately did absolutely nothing but hurt the gang in the end. But try deciding that at the time you make the decision and from Sissi's eyes. You don't know the entirety of the situation, you don't know what can be done, you feel you have to do something. Sissi couldn't do anything, but felt it better to tell someone than do nothing. And given the situation at the time, it turned out wrong, but given an entirely different situation, the connection to their usefulness may have been different. Just because you didn't see it for this example, didn't mean thats the way it will always be. Afterall, I don't exactly see how at the time of Ultimatum, telling Sissi would of done much, because I wouldn't know how to connect escaping the police and Sissi, other than their problem was identified as Sissi's father. Who would of thought right there and then that Sissi would fake a bomb threat to help them out? I know I didn't.

Ultimatum is a very different scenario though. She knew what she was up against (the police) and she also knew the entirety (more or less) of what was going on. While I certainly didn't foresee that particular story, I did foresee her using her connections as the Principal's daughter to her own advantage.

In "XANA Awakens" she had no idea what was up other than that XANA had launched an attack using an electric ball of energy. She had no idea what the others were up to (or what their progress was) and I doubt she had any idea of how to help defeat that thing even if they had needed her help.

What's more, unlike in Ultimatum where it was just her and the "enemy", in "XANA Awakens" she had herself, and her father and Jim (and Nurse Dorothy...I guess ^^). I still don't understand why she simply didn't try to ditch them in the sewers or even earlier in the forest. She must have known that they wouldn't understand about Lyoko (they didn't even believe her earlier in the Infirmary). Wouldn't she have realized what a liability they were?

Hindsight is always 20/20, but since you were the one who brought up the possibility of her plan working in some way, I had to say why I found it unlikely that it would have done anything to help in the way she chose to do it.

And usually, secondary motivations should be left untold, otherwise I would probably have a few choice words to say Aelita in The Key. Though her primary reason for her actions was to save all her friends from XANA, her secondary reason was probably to lash out against her father in anger. And then there is her actions in Missing Link. While primarily, you can say Aelita did it to help out Yumi, it can be argued that she did it to prove to Jeremie that she's a big girl or that Jeremie should be able to fully trust her judgement. The fact that she basically just made the decision on her own without allowing Jeremie a word in edgewise, actually sounds a lot like Sissi. But anyways, I rather not start judging by ones secondary motivations.

Fair enough; no secondary motivation judging...although I would like to point out that the "Missing Link" example seems flawed in that, it wouldn't be about proving she was a "big girl", more that her actions were done without Jeremie's consent because she knew he'd say no to her sacrificing her life in the real world, as that's what her giving away her genetic code would have done.

No...I wouldn't blame your friend there for following his conscious...however, on the flip side, I wouldn't blame you either for getting mad or frustrated with him (this is, hypothetically speaking that you would) for telling on you and getting you into trouble as well.

I guess what my arguement here is, is that if one can't blame Sissi for doing what she felt was right, it isn't fair to blame the others for getting mad at her for feeling she betrayed their trust (which is in essence, regardless of motives, what she did). Their hurt is justified, because she really would have messed things up for them...and it isn't fair to fault them for that, in my opinion, over faulting Sissi for blabbing and then asking for the super computer to be shut down.

And since neither parties can be blamed in that respect...the only real blame comes down to XANA...for being a pill in the first place. ^^

Still, isn't it best to forgive and forget. Yes, if it was me, I'd be a bit peeved at my friend for going against what I asked him to do, but it wouldn't be right for me to stay mad, if it was done with the best intentions. That would just be me holding a grudge, and holding grudges usually leads to more problems later down the line. I'm sure Jeremie felt a bit angry at Yumi when she basically went against his decision and tried to force the issue, but atleast he didn't stay mad. They really should of given Sissi that chance. Who knows, maybe if time had not been reset, Sissi would of been sorry about her actions and would of sought out atonement.

Again, Yumi wasn't the only one to go against Jeremie's wishes (and who says that what Jeremie says has to go? He's not the leader and he's not always right about things, and he doesn't always make the best decisions either, since he always worries about Aelita's safety...the fact that they challenge him from time to time has gotten them out of very bad scratches and saved innocent people as well). The group voted (Ulrich voting on telling as well...not to mention Aelita herself), and majority ruled. Yumi was simply was the one who went to do the telling. Ulrich easily could have gone as well. If anything, I would think that Jeremie would be more frustrated with Aelita for out-voting him, than he would be with Yumi for bringing it up.

And about "forgiving and forgetting". That works for more innocent trespasses much more easily than it does for life and death situations. It also is much harder to do so when the issue of "trust" is involved, as the human sense of "trust" is a very stong feeling, and when it's broken it's hard to repair as no one ever truly forgets (with memory wipes by the RTTP being an exception).

Now, you said in your "hypothetical situation" that your friend's tattling and whether or not it would be considered "wrong" would depend on the consequences. You gave no "consequences " for that hypothetical situation, but we do know what the most likely consequences would have been for Sissi's tattling in "XANA Awakens"

Here's the rub. If, in your hypothetical situation, your friend's involving the police had then caused the death or incarceration of your sibling, results in both of which you wouldn't be able to see him again for a long time, would you honestly not be angry with your friend for, albeit indirectly, causing it?

Would you not also always consider the possibility of your sibling still being with you if said friend had not ever acted? And be both angered and saddened by that?

Or would you truly forgive said friend, with a "No worries, mate. Sure my sibling's now dead, and I'll never see him again, and I'm now being investigated by the police as well as an accomplice. But no hard feelings."

Highly exaggerated sentiments, but it does stand to reason. Even if your friend's tattling hadn't had any negative effects (which I don't see possible since the authorities would obviously go after your sibling for illicit activity, and you for trying to hide it from them in the first place), wouldn't you still be upset with them for breaking that trust between you and putting you and your sibling at risk?

The amount of time is not the arguement here, as we can clearly see that as of the middle of season 2, the gang was far more comfortable around Sissi than before.

The initial anger and resentment, however is, and in that respect, I think Ulrich and his friends acted very realistically (and with some amount of justification), and can't really be put at fault for it.

The point is, humans do not like to have their trust betrayed, particularly when it involves a life and death situation, or the safety of themselves or a mutual friend.

[quote="animenologist"]I feel I should disagree with you on Yumi “suggestingâ€

[Ghost Guest offline]

This is gonna sound incredibly lame (because your post was big and this is short and you were mainly talking about other things)... but you said Jeremie isn't the leader. I've always thought he is, since he is the one who coordinates the missions and stuff. And at least in one occasion he's said something like "Nobody moves until I give the order". Now, he isn't like an evil dictator, he's just a leader who may times has agreed to do what others think is best. That's just my opinion, anyway.

[animenologist offline]

Ultimatum is a very different scenario though. She knew what she was up against (the police) and she also knew the entirety (more or less) of what was going on. While I certainly didn't foresee that particular story, I did foresee her using her connections as the Principal's daughter to her own advantage.

In "XANA Awakens" she had no idea what was up other than that XANA had launched an attack using an electric ball of energy. She had no idea what the others were up to (or what their progress was) and I doubt she had any idea of how to help defeat that thing even if they had needed her help.

What's more, unlike in Ultimatum where it was just her and the "enemy", in "XANA Awakens" she had herself, and her father and Jim (and Nurse Dorothy...I guess ^^). I still don't understand why she simply didn't try to ditch them in the sewers or even earlier in the forest. She must have known that they wouldn't understand about Lyoko (they didn't even believe her earlier in the Infirmary). Wouldn't she have realized what a liability they were?

Hindsight is always 20/20, but since you were the one who brought up the possibility of her plan working in some way, I had to say why I found it unlikely that it would have done anything to help in the way she chose to do it.

Again, apparent connection does not predict the possible consequence of the situation. Sissi brought in the principal and Jim and you fault her for that because you don't see how they could of done anything, and cite as proof of it, the futility of Jim and the principal in helping. But again, thats basing judgement of an action in hindsight, and had it been a different attack or a different situation entirely, the action may have been helpful.

Lets take for example, A Bad Turn. Ulrich revealed to William the location of the factory as well as made it known that the gang was in some way connected to these horrible monsters. Ulrich, like Sissi, forgoed the gang in telling William, as I didn't seem him bother to consult anyone in the gang before making the decision to involve him. And if Ulrich wanted, he could of easily ditched William, what with 2 particular ways to get to the factory, and he would have a skateboard and know the sewers better than him (well, had he gone to the factory). If he didn't want to go to the factory, keeping him away from the factory and not revealing their connection to the monsters would just to be silent. And you can't believe that Wlliam would be capable of handling a 2-story Krabe that shoots lasers with scythe like claws that can crush someone. So Ulrich involved another innocent, who you would have very reasonable doubt to believe he is capable of something, and without the team's permission, just like Sissi. And we can't really guage what liability telling William would have, he could of easily squealed to the athorities had time went on its way, but we don't know for sure. But yet, the difference was that ultimately the principal and Jim didn't help and William did. That just seems like luck was against Sissi's side, more than anything else.

Fair enough; no secondary motivation judging...although I would like to point out that the "Missing Link" example seems flawed in that, it wouldn't be about proving she was a "big girl", more that her actions were done without Jeremie's consent because she knew he'd say no to her sacrificing her life in the real world, as that's what her giving away her genetic code would have done.

Well, the whole "just trust me this time" makes me suspect. I mean, what exactly is the point of saying that, if not to prove herself capable of something (what, I'm not exactly sure of).

Again, Yumi wasn't the only one to go against Jeremie's wishes (and who says that what Jeremie says has to go? He's not the leader and he's not always right about things, and he doesn't always make the best decisions either, since he always worries about Aelita's safety...the fact that they challenge him from time to time has gotten them out of very bad scratches and saved innocent people as well). The group voted (Ulrich voting on telling as well...not to mention Aelita herself), and majority ruled. Yumi was simply was the one who went to do the telling. Ulrich easily could have gone as well. If anything, I would think that Jeremie would be more frustrated with Aelita for out-voting him, than he would be with Yumi for bringing it up.

And about "forgiving and forgetting". That works for more innocent trespasses much more easily than it does for life and death situations. It also is much harder to do so when the issue of "trust" is involved, as the human sense of "trust" is a very stong feeling, and when it's broken it's hard to repair as no one ever truly forgets (with memory wipes by the RTTP being an exception).

Now, you said in your "hypothetical situation" that your friend's tattling and whether or not it would be considered "wrong" would depend on the consequences. You gave no "consequences " for that hypothetical situation, but we do know what the most likely consequences would have been for Sissi's tattling in "XANA Awakens"

Here's the rub. If, in your hypothetical situation, your friend's involving the police had then caused the death or incarceration of your sibling, results in both of which you wouldn't be able to see him again for a long time, would you honestly not be angry with your friend for, albeit indirectly, causing it?

Would you not also always consider the possibility of your sibling still being with you if said friend had not ever acted? And be both angered and saddened by that?

Or would you truly forgive said friend, with a "No worries, mate. Sure my sibling's now dead, and I'll never see him again, and I'm now being investigated by the police as well as an accomplice. But no hard feelings."

Highly exaggerated sentiments, but it does stand to reason. Even if your friend's tattling hadn't had any negative effects (which I don't see possible since the authorities would obviously go after your sibling for illicit activity, and you for trying to hide it from them in the first place), wouldn't you still be upset with them for breaking that trust between you and putting you and your sibling at risk?

The amount of time is not the arguement here, as we can clearly see that as of the middle of season 2, the gang was far more comfortable around Sissi than before.

The initial anger and resentment, however is, and in that respect, I think Ulrich and his friends acted very realistically (and with some amount of justification), and can't really be put at fault for it.

The point is, humans do not like to have their trust betrayed, particularly when it involves a life and death situation, or the safety of themselves or a mutual friend.

Wasn't that one of big debates in the past, where we argued the leadership of the gang and whether or not Jeremie is considered the leader? Probably since that specific detail was the subject of a fairly long, inconclusive debate, I probably won't bring that up as evidence. But again, I'm not blaming Yumi (entirely) for undergoing the task of telling, I'm faulting her for forcing the issue within the context of it being inconsistent with the gang's handling of Sissi's situation. Ulrich, though sided with Yumi, never would of stood up for the idea, had Yumi not forced the issue and have Jeremie call the vote. Don't remember him sticking up for Yumi during the argument. And Aelita wouldn't have questioned it either unless the group decided otherwise. Its like calling a vote for something when nobody has no major inclination to vote. By calling the vote, you attempt to make others act, whether they were planning to or not.

Well, me personally, I would hate the consequence, but would harbor no strong ill-will towards my friend. It would be in poor-spirit of me, imo, to blame someone for that they are not directly responsible for, and really can lead to some nasty situations if you take the idea to an extreme. Lets say, I'm traveling along with my friend on a road trip and he wants to stop by a fast food stop, when I say we should continue going. We argue a bit, and he stops anyways. When we make the stop, a car taking a turn to fast into the stop, rams us, injuring me. It would be kinda stupid to blame him, even though technically he indirectly placed me in that situation, by stopping at the stop, where the car rammed us. But thats just me personally, and I guess it would also be rude of me to expect everyone to act the same.

And if we were supposed to make guesstimates on how long until Season 2 in tv time until they finally stopped ragging on Sissi, it would have to be more than a year. It was atleast one year before Ulrich said he would attempt to be nice to her in The Trap, and the first probably real nice act they did that didn't have strings attached or wasn't because they had to since she was in danger, was probably Missing Link, which is a few weeks to a few months after False Start. I'd consider that a long time for an offense she technically did not commit.

Well, then, if we discount any opinions held over what Yumi's "suggesting" the idea of telling people about the impending attack and what that would have implied, we are still left with the fact that Sissi forwent the group's decision, where as Yumi didn't. Yumi had the group's agreement, Sissi didn't, and that's what it ultimately breaks down to and why Sissi is more at fault than Yumi for blowing the secret.

And again, I find it inconsistent with some of the other times some one on the team went and forgoed the group, but recieved relatively lesser or even no punishment for their actions. For the act of forgoing the group, which is ultimately reset, she gets a year plus of the gang's grief.

To this, I can only offer your own idea of their being some sort of "unforeseen" outcome or tactic, much like Sissi's made-up story in "Ultimatum". While the authorites said they couldn't shut the pylon down, they made no mention of what could be done to protect the nuclear power plant (as they didn't know that was the target).

Perhaps they could have simply cut down the electric wires connecting the pylon and the plant. Or set up a sort of block that would have kept the electrical energy from getting past and into the nuclear plant. Or maybe sent a warning to the power plant...after all, perhaps the power plant had defensive measures themselves, that could be used in the case of an electrical surge.

The key was letting them know that the power plant was under attack. Talking about Lyoko was never Yumi's intention. It was simply forced out of her when the authorities refused to act without knowing how she knew (and saying "a little bird told me" obviously wasn't going to fly.

This is again, different from Sissi's in that Sissi had no reason to involve her father, Jim and Nurse Dorothy, past getting them to let her leave, which could have been accomplished by simply saying that Ulrich, Odd and Jeremie were in danger (without mentioning Lyoko).

And even so, if the only difference is ultimately that Sissi did it without the group's approval whereas Yumi did, isn't that why the group should be justified in being angry with her? She broke their trust, Yumi didn't.

They attempted to sever connection of the pylon. It didn't work. Although its possible that Yumi alerting the authorities would have in some alternate scenario been helpful, it ultimately failed. And thats what I'm getting at. Sissi's idea fails, they jump on her. Yumi's idea fails and only attempted by a slim majority (really, Ulrich would support Yumi over Jeremie in anything and Aelita with her martyr complex would be unable to think anything else) and she gets of scot-free. And Seeing is Believing is not the only time that someone buckled under the norm or betrayed the teams trust. Jeremie did it in The Girl of the Dreams and arguably Temptation. Ulrich betrayed their trust in The Chips are Down. Aelita betrayed Jeremie's trust in Missing Link. Yumi let her feelings get in the way of the group in Routine. And the gang (with the exception of Aelita) abandoned Jeremie in Franz Hopper. Yet in the end, they are all offered redemption, while Sissi never got the chance and started of a cycle of disdain between Sissi and the gang.

The idea of Sissi's bad feelings spreading to those in the vicinity is a decent explanation of why she would torture Milly and Tamiya, but Helga's situation doesn't fully explain it.

Herb and Nicholas are the parallels for Phoebe, not Millie and Tamiya, that's a definite. Pushing aside Herb's infatuation for Sissi, one can still state that Herb and Nicholas stick with Sissi because they consider her a friend and care about her and like her, just as the same can be said for Phoebe.

Patty is an interesting comparison to Millie and Tamiya, however I would argue that it's not quite the same situation. Patty was teased by nearly everyone because of the way she looked, not just Helga, so this seems to buy into the idea of "teasing someone to look cool and fit in with the crowd". So far as I can tell, Sissi is the only one who teases Milly and Tamiya, and as she already considers herself of the "In-Crowd", I can't rightly figure out why she picked on them specifically other than they dared to like Ulrich in a "crush" sense, and didn't look up to her in some fashion.

Well, Patty was made fun of the most extensively by Helga, but yeah, several people had taken jabs at Patty before (Rhonda, Stinky, Sid, Harold). Helga has also made fun of the likes of Harold, Rhonda, Brainy, Eugene, and Gerald and has possibly made fun of everyone in class at one point in time. You could probably relate Milly and Tamiya for being similar to Gerald, where she would act rudely to him, even though his only connection to Arnold is being his best-friend, and among the students of 4th grade PS 118, is among the least offensive to her, atleast in comparison to say, Harold.

Absolutely...but three rights make a left. Winking

I always preferred this comeback. "One wrong doesn't make a right. Two wrongs, atleast makes me feel better." Not that I'm advocating it, so I better not be recieving angry phone calls from parents saying I'm corrupting their youth .

That's what my big arguement at heart was (and my deepest reason for debating Sissi's actions). Everyone jumped on the gang, Ulrich in particular, for getting mad at her, when in all honesty, they were acting terribly realistically and human. They'd been hurt, and humans tend to show their hurt through anger and avoiding what it was that caused them that hurt (more than likely in a sub-conscious attempt to keep it from happening again).

Fair enough. I'm not fond of the idea of grudges either, nor revenge, but not everyone will hold the same ideals, particularly not most humans these days, not even the adults (we wouldn't have so many wars and fighting otherwise).

I must apologize to Lani for this next comment (as I absolutely respect and admire the work you've done in this department), but other than an estimate we don't exactly know how much time passed between "XANA Awakens" and the time when the group (as a whole) started being more accepting of her. Lani could be very close in her theory, or off, but the research and evidence is there.

In any case, according to Lani's estimates, it appears to be a little over a year. In my opinion, that's not too bad a duration of time, so far as grudge holding goes. I've seen grudges held far longer than that, at any rate.

So, in essence, it looks like they weren't as unreasonable about their grudge as they easily could have been.

Well we're jumping on the gang for acting human to Sissi (well, me anyways, can't speak for everyone else), is because the gang is jumping on Sissi for acting human. There are sometimes those times where you feel you should do something, you feel you should say something, feel you should help in some way, but you don't know how or what, and that leads you to do something that in hindsight, appears very foolish. It happens. If the gang has the right to be angry for an offense that they did not intend as such, shouldn't we have the right to be disappointed if we feel that it was a misjudgement or an overjudgment?

And again, over a year is still a lot of time to hold a grudge on someone for something that technically now, never happened.

As for the Principal and Jim (and this can also be said of the police too), they were merely involved in this through someone else's devices. In "XANA Awakens" it was Sissi, and in "Girl of the Dreams" it was Taelia. They're more innocent bystanders in the larger view, since ultimately they wouldn't have been there had the secret not been blabbed.

Only because Jim is terrible at following them. Weren't there multiple occasions where he attempted to follow the gang, and had he been as good as Sissi was in The Trap, could of followed them to the factory and blow the whole thing wide open. Though can we blame Jim for trying?

Isn't that what Jeremie and the gang were doing in the first place though? ^^

I'm not saying there isn't the chance of someone within the government, or whatever organization took her in, caring for her, but considering the things said about Area 51 and such...

Well, they are still children, who have full time jobs being students as well as their duties of taking on XANA. Jeremie especially, who probably most devoted to Aelita, is also the one most responsible for ensuring nothing goes awry, making sure Aelita is taken care of, is almost solely responsible with solving whatever problem they have for the Season, basically gets all the thankless work, without being the glamerous and heroic warrior. Kind of a lot of strain to put on children isn't it? Though still fun to watch.

Key word there again though: Money (and funding).

It would take money to build materialization chambers in poor countries...more money than it already takes to transport supplies nowadays.

I'm also not sure if the scanners can "replicate" things as you suggest. So far as I can tell, they only act as transporters to and from Lyoko. Whatever is in Lyoko can come out (and then go back in), and whatever's outside Lyoko can go in (and then come back out), but I'm not sure if it can work as a "replicator". The only thing that can create things out of thin air, so far as we know is XANA (in the case of his monsters)...and I doubt they'd want to ask him for help. ^^

A 40+ year old man is able to build his own supercomputer on a teacher's salary (and possibly stolen tech). And whatever money lost in creating it would be paid back 10-fold once it starts churning out goods regularly at an economical cost. And whats the saying? "If you can do it, I can do it also?" If XANA can do it, surely a crew of scientists working tirelessly could repeat the process. XANA was able to build and fit a Krabe inside a scanner until it burst forth. If thats not appearing out of thin air, I'm not sure what.

Again though, I'll borrow your idea of unforeseen outcomes. I already proposed the ideas of simply cutting the wires to the Nuclear Power plant, or setting up an electrical block.

And even if XANA had eventually found a way around it, it would have bought them time...and time is of the essence. Perhaps, in the time saved, Jeremie could have done something even from his end, or within Lyoko.

Who's to say?

At any rate though, Yumi's had far more chances for success than Sissi's, as Yumi went to the people who "should have" been able to help. Sissi brought her dad, Jim, and Nurse Dorothy...and Jim got himself electrocuted in the process... ^^;

Guess we judge success differently then. I think the attempt that brings in results is more successful than something that had better intent. While Yumi attempted to get people who we expected could help, atleast Sissi brought some help at all. That's better than nothing. I mean, Yumi can go attempt to get and fail to bring in Stephen Hawking to tutor me in Physics, but I'd consider Sissi more successful to bring in a PE teacher. Who knows, the PE teacher may have listened to his Physics teacher. In the end, I would think Sissi helped me out better, because atleast she brought somebody.

I think you're mixing episodes here. Yumi only alerts the police and the fireman in "Seeing is Believing" so far as I know, and not Principal Delmas. She does alert Principal Delmas in "Satellite" but that was clearly under Jeremie's instructions to warn everyone about the impending laser fire. And even so, she never once mentions Lyoko, XANA, or even the impending attack to anyone in that episode.

Going through the episode, the first 3 people she notified were Principal Delmas, Mrs. Hertz, and one of the nuclear powerplant engineers. It was only after that failed did she attempt to try and get the firefighters to listen to her, the same ones who for a good deal of time earlier tried to disconnect the pylon, but to no avail. Wonder why she went to the firefighters and not stuck with the plant worker. And again, her pleas were very unpersuassive, it wasn't until the laser struck did the school finally evacuate. Probably the best decision she made to evacuate the school was to not try to persuade them and get away from them so they can see the danger from a (relatively) safe distance.

Well, that and Aelita clearly was cool with the risks being taken.

Also, Sissi brought herself into the situation in "Ultimatum", not Jeremie and Aelita. She asked that they tell her what was going on with her dad, I believe, and insisted that she help them. She's not really as innocent a bystander in insisting on putting herself into a dangerous situation.

Well, actually, after they were they were detained by the police, they scolded her for messing up, since they were the only ones who can save Principal Delmas. Jeremie and Aelita told Sissi about Lyoko, before she even agreed to help them. Heck, prior to her questioning, her exact words pertaining to Jeremie and Aelita were "complete wacko pathological liars", that hardly sounds like her insisting they tell her everything, more like trying to convince her to help them with their unbelievable story. And unlike Yumi, they didn't try to cover it up to the extent Yumi did. Worked better, imo.

Fair enough. But again, in the reverse, why would it be fair to give Sissi credit for a failed attempt, especially if the quality was lousy on top of it?

Not really giving credit to a failed attempt. Just saying that one failed attempt should not be taken as worse than another when ultimately, the outcome was the same. Sissi shouldn't have recieved that much scorn for that long a time for her failed attempt.

Hey, take in account that you're dealing in this debate witha huge Yumi/Ulrich shipper and probably one of the most hyper CL fans worldwide. She'll counter your point since she woudln't allow Sissi to be seen as a person with something purely good. In few words, she hates Sissi.

Well that usually is the point of a debate, a constant referencing and cross-referencing of points and really I wouldn't have much fun, and would probably hate it incredibly, if Mew or anyone caved into my arguments just because I made an argument. The fact that she is countering it, means that she is thinking about her position and reinforcing as well as giving another POV on a specific topic. In my opinion, convincing your opponent that your opinion is right is only secondary, to having you think and learn and reinforce your side of view, to get you to think, and to get those who spectate to think. The fact that we got you to take a chance in the debate says something doesn't it? And that last sentence reeks of ad hominem.

Okay, suppose Sissi stops being unforgiven. But how would you get Sissi to believe that once they used to trust her and that she almost would have gone to Lyoko? How much can they trust Sissi? And once she gets virtualized, there's no turning back, unless Jeremie develops a hell of a program powerful enough to erase Sissi's memory (and/or damage her brain in the process) in case she screws things up seriously.

Having her believe in Lyoko is not a necessity to her forgiveness. All the need to do is treat her nicely, basically what happened in the 2nd half of Season 2, should have already been happening in Season 1. Show her some respect, stop blaming her for that one incident that she can't remember and never did. Treat her friendly. No way does it include having to make her part of the Lyoko gang. Just as the gang gave congratulations to Jim at the end of False Start as sort of thanks and apology for any troubles they've given him the past year, but he still didn't stay a part of the gang. Thats what I wanted.

Aelita's not the one to take blame in bringing Sissi to the group during Xana Awakens. This would be a matter of chain reaction thing.

Remember, there was Sissi, Odd and Ulrich at Kadic. Ulrich's pissed off because Odd's pet trashed his stuff and bedroom. And by the time, Ulrich was told by Jeremie to get a guinea pig. Ulrich's mind let him think of Kiwi for a guinea pig as in a matter of payback to Odd, given that he felt annoyed by Odd and he crossed the line with Kiwi trashing his stuff.

Later, Sissi's waiting for Ulrich to be with and wasn't aware of the situation between Odd and Ulrich. She was tired of waiting for Ulrich, rings the mobile when Ulrich just grabbed Kiwi, Odd woke up with the mobile ring as well as Kiwi's barking just in time to see Ulrich stealing his dog. Odd chases Ulrich, giving a spear to Sissi (who was annoyed that Ulrich didn't answered her call and went straight to his bedroom) in the process. Odd runs to recover Kiwi, while Sissi gets into something that wasn't really her business (expect that her business would be getting Ulrich's affection). As the chase went on, Sissi learned that Ulrich was running away with Odd's pet.
Did she forgot that having a pet in the school is illegal? I'm sure she didn't knew that rule or wasn't aware of it to do something against Odd.
Would it make sense for her to see Ulrich running away with a dog, or something that didn't belong to him? Would she have seen Ulrich as the same way Odd did, as a thief? Would Sissi and Odd knew what would Ulrich do by taking a dog to some abandoned factory? Questions arise... but let's get back to your last quote I'm pointing at. Aelita's not to blame, I'm sure of that. And as for Jeremie, he sees Sissi in the factory and Ulrich as well. He didn't expected to see Sissi there, but at the time, Aelita was in danger and that was his biggest concern. He had no other choice but to trust Sissi at the moment to get some aid for Aelita.

I was talking about Ultimatum. In the episode, Jeremie and Aelita told Sissi about Lyoko and practically pleaded with her to help them, despite her not believing them. I'm saying that what Jeremie and Aelita tried to do with Sissi can be similar to what Sissi tried to do with Principal Delmas and Jim.[/code]

This is gonna sound incredibly lame (because your post was big and this is short and you were mainly talking about other things)... but you said Jeremie isn't the leader. I've always thought he is, since he is the one who coordinates the missions and stuff. And at least in one occasion he's said something like "Nobody moves until I give the order". Now, he isn't like an evil dictator, he's just a leader who may times has agreed to do what others think is best. That's just my opinion, anyway. Happy

You'd probably want to check up a topic called Who is the main character in CL discussions. The last 2 or 3 pages had an also fairly large debate (though I think this one has basically broken all records), between me, Mew, and TFL about who (if any) was the leader of the gang.

[Ghost Guest offline]

You'd probably want to check up a topic called Who is the main character in CL discussions. The last 2 or 3 pages had an also fairly large debate (though I think this one has basically broken all records), between me, Mew, and TFL about who (if any) was the leader of the gang.

Thanks, that was helpful.

Sorry for getting in the middle of your conversation with Mewberries, but I just wanted to say the following.

Lets take for example, A Bad Turn. Ulrich revealed to William the location of the factory as well as made it known that the gang was in some way connected to these horrible monsters. Ulrich, like Sissi, forgoed the gang in telling William, as I didn't seem him bother to consult anyone in the gang before making the decision to involve him. And if Ulrich wanted, he could of easily ditched William, what with 2 particular ways to get to the factory, and he would have a skateboard and know the sewers better than him (well, had he gone to the factory). If he didn't want to go to the factory, keeping him away from the factory and not revealing their connection to the monsters would just to be silent. And you can't believe that Wlliam would be capable of handling a 2-story Krabe that shoots lasers with scythe like claws that can crush someone. So Ulrich involved another innocent, who you would have very reasonable doubt to believe he is capable of something, and without the team's permission, just like Sissi. And we can't really guage what liability telling William would have, he could of easily squealed to the athorities had time went on its way, but we don't know for sure. But yet, the difference was that ultimately the principal and Jim didn't help and William did. That just seems like luck was against Sissi's side, more than anything else.

If you recall, in, "A Bad Turn" it was William who decided to help Ulrich. When Ulrich told Jeremie, "I'll take care of it (the Krab)" William answered, "We'll take care of it", much to Ulrich's displeasure. And I don't think Ulrich could have ditched William easily, since he was too close to him. Unlike in "Xana Awakens", where Sissi could have escaped through the infirmary's window once everyone had left the room. Also, in "A Bad Turn", Ulrich knew a RTTP would erase William's memories, which was exactly what happened. It's true that William could have squealed to the authorities, but it was a risk that needed to be taken. Ulrich knew how the situation was. Odd needed help and the best he could get at the time was William's. A similar thing occured In "Ultimatum", when Jeremie and Aelita told Sissi about the Lyoko it was because they had no other option left. They were being held by the cops and needed desperately to get out of there. Sissi in "Xana Awakens", jumped to conclusions and revealed the secret without thinking of the consequences. . Again, that's just my opinion.

[animenologist offline]

Which was ultimately solved by a RTTP, granted probably no one on the team expected to use it. But in the end, no real harm was done, other than Sissi's lost chance of being a trusted member of the Lyoko warriors. Really can't say much about Taelia, since she never showed up again, which I'm guessing she transferred out relatively soon, but she did the exact same thing and Jeremie was guilty of jumping to conclusions as well. But time was reset, everything bad is now good again, don't see why they feel they need to continue to be mean to Sissi.

[Ghost Guest offline]

Well Jeremie did jump to conclusions too, but when he realized his mistake he admitted it and tried to make things better. When Sissi was confronted, she turned her back on the group pretty quickly.

When have they been mean to her without reason? In fact, the times when she has acted nicely, the others have treated her nicely as well. I think the real conflict with Sissi is that she was willing to sacrifice Aelita with no remorse, not so much the fact that she didn't keep the secret.

[Mewberries151]

Again, apparent connection does not predict the possible consequence of the situation. Sissi brought in the principal and Jim and you fault her for that because you don't see how they could of done anything, and cite as proof of it, the futility of Jim and the principal in helping. But again, thats basing judgement of an action in hindsight, and had it been a different attack or a different situation entirely, the action may have been helpful.

If we start getting into different situations and different attacks, we're going to lose sight of the point. For this situation specifically, based on the all of the collective data we have on what Jim, her father's and Nurse Dorothy's skills are and what they're capable of, it is blatantly clear that it would have done nothing helpful to involve them, a point made even clearer that Jim was incapacitated so easily. Involving Jim would have been effective had XANA possessed a Sumo Wrestler. And perhaps if he'd tried the "monster materialization" ploy and Jim had been properly armed.

Her father is of no use in a battle. His use would come in negotiations and in authority, perhaps with the police, not in a battle against an electric monster. The same goes for Nurse Dorothy, although, perhaps, had Jeremie and Jim not been trapped in the room without anyone being able to help them, she might have been useful in keeping them alive or in tending to their wounds (and whatever wounds the group had incurred) with her knowledge. But she's not a fighter either.

The way I see it, based on all of what we know about Jim, the Principal, and Nurse Dorothy and their abilities and skills, involving them would have done absolutely nothing.

A different place, a different scenario, and maybe a few "Jeremifyings" and, sure, I can see them being a decent force to be reckoned with, but in this scenario, specific to "XANA Awakens" which has been the forefront of this debate, even with all angles considered, 99.9% they were just going to get toasted as well.

It also should have been obvious to Sissi that after witnessing something so dangerous, they would have wanted to shut the computer down. Perhaps she wasn't thinking clearly at the time, but she should at least have know what her father's reaction was going to be towards something that posed a threat towards his daughter (and the students under his care).

Lets take for example, A Bad Turn. Ulrich revealed to William the location of the factory as well as made it known that the gang was in some way connected to these horrible monsters. Ulrich, like Sissi, forgoed the gang in telling William, as I didn't seem him bother to consult anyone in the gang before making the decision to involve him. And if Ulrich wanted, he could of easily ditched William, what with 2 particular ways to get to the factory, and he would have a skateboard and know the sewers better than him (well, had he gone to the factory). If he didn't want to go to the factory, keeping him away from the factory and not revealing their connection to the monsters would just to be silent. And you can't believe that Wlliam would be capable of handling a 2-story Krabe that shoots lasers with scythe like claws that can crush someone. So Ulrich involved another innocent, who you would have very reasonable doubt to believe he is capable of something, and without the team's permission, just like Sissi. And we can't really guage what liability telling William would have, he could of easily squealed to the athorities had time went on its way, but we don't know for sure. But yet, the difference was that ultimately the principal and Jim didn't help and William did. That just seems like luck was against Sissi's side, more than anything else.

As ese mae pointed out though, William involved himself (just as he later does in "Lyoko Minus 1"). Ulrich clearly would have rather dealt with that on his own as he tried twice to get William to go run away...or something. However, since William insisted, what was Ulrich to do when precious time was being wasted and others were in danger. Stand there and argue with him until he left? Not likely and also impossible (since William wasn't going to go anywhere).

William involved himself. He wasn't asked by Ulrich to do anything that he hadn't already volunteered/forced himself into. Having watched this episode again, Sissi had two chances to ditch Jim and her father. The first would have been while in the Infirmary (which also marks the place where she easily could have avoided telling them "everything"), and the second would have been outside the manhole. Her father asks if it was necessary for them to go down into the sewer, to which Sissi replies with a "guilt trip" sentence. She didn't have to make them follow her. And again, she blabs about Lyoko much too quickly for my taste in the Infirmary. She either wasn't thinking clearly, or she just didn't care about it at the time.

Fair enough; no secondary motivation judging...although I would like to point out that the "Missing Link" example seems flawed in that, it wouldn't be about proving she was a "big girl", more that her actions were done without Jeremie's consent because she knew he'd say no to her sacrificing her life in the real world, as that's what her giving away her genetic code would have done.

Well, the whole "just trust me this time" makes me suspect. I mean, what exactly is the point of saying that, if not to prove herself capable of something (what, I'm not exactly sure of).[/quote]

Perhaps she was simply expressing a slight frustration that Jeremie doesn't trust her judgements or ever agree with her on anything pertaining to Lyoko during that entire season? Jeremie's thoughts are always centered on keeping her safe, and in season 2, it got to the point where he'd disagree with her on just about any angle she suggested in regards to Lyoko.

Remember, trust is very important to this group. Jeremie wasn't trusting Aelita's advice on anything, even though, as the guardian of Lyoko and having spent infinitely more time there than he had, he should have taken her word for it, and trusted her judgement.

It's not about "being a big girl", so much as it is trying to get Jeremie to just listen to reason for a change, and stop choosing her safety over that of his other friends (which, while understandable since he's so lovesick...is kind of poor on his part, in a way ^^).

Wasn't that one of big debates in the past, where we argued the leadership of the gang and whether or not Jeremie is considered the leader? Probably since that specific detail was the subject of a fairly long, inconclusive debate, I probably won't bring that up as evidence. But again, I'm not blaming Yumi (entirely) for undergoing the task of telling, I'm faulting her for forcing the issue within the context of it being inconsistent with the gang's handling of Sissi's situation. Ulrich, though sided with Yumi, never would of stood up for the idea, had Yumi not forced the issue and have Jeremie call the vote. Don't remember him sticking up for Yumi during the argument. And Aelita wouldn't have questioned it either unless the group decided otherwise. Its like calling a vote for something when nobody has no major inclination to vote. By calling the vote, you attempt to make others act, whether they were planning to or not.

Pushing aside the leader thing then (since that was another debate entirely), assuming the group is completely equal in who calls the shots, then this is a matter of checks and balances. Jeremie's concerns are first to Aelita, second to anyone else who could be hurt. Yumi's concerns are both equally to Aelita and the anyone else who could be hurt, and I say this because in "Seeing is Believing" she sounds completely torn up about even suggesting the idea of revealing Lyoko to anyone, and the thought of Aelita gettin hurt. Ulrich's concerns...most likely cater to Yumi's first....and then everyone else's. Odd's concerns...skip that...who knows what concerns Odd (although, if one believes his flirting with Aelita to be indicative of something more, I'd say he'll favor Aelita's safety over others, just by a smidge).

So the group has Checks and Balances in terms of in what direction decisions on XANA's attacks go. Yumi's concern for everyone in general compensates for Jeremie's obsession with protecting Aelita from any possible harm, even at the expense of others. This may come partly from her maturity, but the unfortunate thing is, is that this gives her the unfortunate task of having to tell Jeremie when he's being reckless with everyone's safety. "Seeing is Believing" is a perfect example of this.

Aelita's concerns is where it gets tricky. While she obviously cares about her own life, she's got that martyr complex (or whatever you want to call it). Now, you mention that Aelita wouldn't have questioned it until it was brought up. However, couldn't it have been possible that Aelita wouldn't have understood what a nuclear attack like that would have done? Remember, back then, she had none of her memories, and only a general knowledge of the outside world. Even more so, even had she known something of radioactive and nuclear elements, it more would have been relegated to whatever knowledge she had of the supercomputer's Uranium based battery, which in her case, would have meant radiation was a good thing.

Aelita wouldn't have known to bring that up...and of course, Jeremie neglected to tell her what exactly nuclear elements do to the human body, and nor anything about previous nuclear disasters (Chernobyl). Had Aelita known about the attack's specific dangers, there's no doubt in my mind that she would have brought it up herself.

Well, me personally, I would hate the consequence, but would harbor no strong ill-will towards my friend. It would be in poor-spirit of me, imo, to blame someone for that they are not directly responsible for, and really can lead to some nasty situations if you take the idea to an extreme. Lets say, I'm traveling along with my friend on a road trip and he wants to stop by a fast food stop, when I say we should continue going. We argue a bit, and he stops anyways. When we make the stop, a car taking a turn to fast into the stop, rams us, injuring me. It would be kinda stupid to blame him, even though technically he indirectly placed me in that situation, by stopping at the stop, where the car rammed us. But thats just me personally, and I guess it would also be rude of me to expect everyone to act the same.

So you honestly, even if it meant hypothetically losing a sibling because of what your friend had told the police, even afterwards having to look at pictures of your sibling and know he's not around anymore, even after having your siblings friends, your friends (who would have also known him) and the rest of your family, mourning his loss around you, you wouldn't harbor any ill feelings...even for a small amount of time?

Just picture it from Jeremie's point of view; every day, he'd come back to his dorm room, and see his computer there, with no Aelita (Maya) to pop up and say hello. Keeping in mind that he'd already established feelings for her, I think it'd have been hard for him to want to be near Sissi for awhile.

And Ulrich and Odd (and Yumi) having to see him every day like that, and knowing precisely why Aelita was no longer around as well, I find it terribly hard to believe that they'd want to be anywhere near Sissi either, if not out of their own hurt, but out of respect for Jeremie's own feelings.

If you honestly feel that you wouldn't initially show any sort of anger towards your friend for breaking your trust and getting your sibling hurt/killed, and provided your friend also felt no outward remorse for what he'd done (and caused, albeit indirectly)...

And if we were supposed to make guesstimates on how long until Season 2 in tv time until they finally stopped ragging on Sissi, it would have to be more than a year. It was atleast one year before Ulrich said he would attempt to be nice to her in The Trap, and the first probably real nice act they did that didn't have strings attached or wasn't because they had to since she was in danger, was probably Missing Link, which is a few weeks to a few months after False Start. I'd consider that a long time for an offense she technically did not commit.

In the larger view of grudge holding though, a year is not much. Whole nations and governments have held grudges for years, even decades.

And again, it's very tricky to get into the "technically did not commit" territory, because it all depends on one's own ethics, and ultimately, who benefits from it, in terms of safety.

Take that movie you previously referenced. I'd imagine the "victims who would have been" and the family members thereof, were grateful and happy to have such a machine. What's more, they're not going to want anything to do with the "supposed murderer" not only because of what he intended, but out of fear of giving it another chance of happening. However, the "intended criminal", was likely not so much so, especially having not commited the crime (even though he technically would have).

It's the same thing with "XANA Awakens". The group knows what she did, and they're grateful for a second chance. There's no way they're going to risk inviting her back in again, much less really want to associate with her, knowing what they know.

I could also get into a whole arguement about the relevancy of time, and parallel time dimensions in which, one could say that in another frame of time, the RTTP never happened and that timeline continued on as it would have (with the super computer being shut off, and so forth), so it technically happened, but on another plane of existence.

But that's getting way out of the ball park, and also into even more sci-fi territory than CL can honestly be applied to (I feel), so that's a digression.

In any case though, if it's unfair that Sissi's getting blamed for something she "technically" didn't do (or doesn't remember doing to be more precise)...isn't it also unfair to blame the CL gang for reacting to something that they witnessed happening and had the chance to prevent?

And again, I find it inconsistent with some of the other times some one on the team went and forgoed the group, but recieved relatively lesser or even no punishment for their actions. For the act of forgoing the group, which is ultimately reset, she gets a year plus of the gang's grief.

You haven't cited specifics this time around, but most of your previous examples I have already pointed out to be different cases, in which the person "told" involved themself, or, as Aelita was present (who should be the ultimate decision maker on who knows as it connects to her health, IMO), it was obviously not needed to go to a vote.

And again, none of them asked specifically for the super computer to be shut off. That's Sissi's big line-crosser.

They attempted to sever connection of the pylon. It didn't work. Although its possible that Yumi alerting the authorities would have in some alternate scenario been helpful, it ultimately failed. And thats what I'm getting at. Sissi's idea fails, they jump on her. Yumi's idea fails and only attempted by a slim majority (really, Ulrich would support Yumi over Jeremie in anything and Aelita with her martyr complex would be unable to think anything else) and she gets of scot-free.

I wasn't talking about severing the pylon's connections. I was talking about cutting the things that connected the nuclear plant specifically. Couldn't someone have simply cut the wires leading to the nuclear powerplant and not the pylon itself? Or couldn't a block been set-up around the powerplant to block the electrical flow? They wouldn't have to touch the pylon, since that was clearly a lost cause...it would more be about ensuring that the nuclear plant couldn't be hit.

"Slim majority" is really rather an irrelevant term here...considering that it's only five of them, and Jeremie's always going to vote in favor of Aelita's safety. That leaves a 4-1 vote...which in itself is a slim majority too considering that the only other majority left is a 3-2.

The difference is the vote itself and the group's approval. Sissi didn't have it. Yumi did.

Regardless of the plan's failure, that's what still counts. Had Yumi failed as well as the plan to stop XANA, there wouldn't have been any chance to get mad at her anyway. What's more, during "Seeing is Believing", Jeremie had no real status on her "success or failure"...he could only tell what the pylon was doing, and what ever Yumi reported.

Plus, Yumi's idea failed because of incompetent safety units. Sissi's failed because it was ultimately a bad plan to start with.

And again, the vote's the thing. If you're going to tell someone about Lyoko, either the group votes (or with Aelita's own presence and agreement). Otherwise, you're in big trouble.

And Seeing is Believing is not the only time that someone buckled under the norm or betrayed the teams trust. Jeremie did it in The Girl of the Dreams and arguably Temptation. Ulrich betrayed their trust in The Chips are Down. Aelita betrayed Jeremie's trust in Missing Link. Yumi let her feelings get in the way of the group in Routine. And the gang (with the exception of Aelita) abandoned Jeremie in Franz Hopper. Yet in the end, they are all offered redemption, while Sissi never got the chance and started of a cycle of disdain between Sissi and the gang.

This is going to end up being a nitpick of every time the group has shown human error or weakness in some respect, if we're not careful, as opposed to staying focused on the two key elements as to why everyone got so mad at Sissi.

1) She blabbed the secret of Lyoko, the super computer, XANA and Aelita to three adults without the group's vote of consent.

2) She then turned her back on the group and said the super computer should be shut down.

Any comparisons outside of this are going to bring this whole thing out of focus.

These kids are human, they're not machines. Emotions shouldn't factor into this past the emotions expressed in reaction to Sissi's actions (as well as her own).

Yumi in "Routine" is a completely un-related case, because then why not blame Ulrich as well, or Odd even (since he got involved then too), or Sissi for starting the entire thing.

Like I've said before, I didn't approve of Jeremie's actions in "Girl of the Dreams", but as he could plead insanity (due to lack of sleep) it can be considered an exception.

Ulrich in "The Chips are Down" is a case of using the RTTP for monetary gains and disregarding the risk of making XANA stonger...and their treatment of him afterwards speaks for itself. He does not get off scot-free.

Aelita in "Missing Link" is in no way a betrayal of Jeremie's trust, since Jeremie had long ago shown that he had no trust in her judgement to start with.

"Franz Hopper" was only Odd and Ulrich, as Aelita clearly did not turn her back on Jeremie (but had to stay since she was needed to stop XANA, and because of her "father's" presence. Yumi expressed no betrayal towards Jeremie, short of not wanting to really discuss the "brain tumor" and not going after him (which again, was because she was needed, since you place alot of importance on being present to fight).

But again none of these cases has true comparisons to the key elements in Sissi's case.

Well, Patty was made fun of the most extensively by Helga, but yeah, several people had taken jabs at Patty before (Rhonda, Stinky, Sid, Harold). Helga has also made fun of the likes of Harold, Rhonda, Brainy, Eugene, and Gerald and has possibly made fun of everyone in class at one point in time. You could probably relate Milly and Tamiya for being similar to Gerald, where she would act rudely to him, even though his only connection to Arnold is being his best-friend, and among the students of 4th grade PS 118, is among the least offensive to her, atleast in comparison to say, Harold.

Hmmm...perhaps that's a better comparison...but it still doesn't quite hit the right mark. Millie and Tamiya aren't part of Ulrich's crowd...and he doesn't have alot of interaction with them. They're not exactly "friends" though is the thing.

I always preferred this comeback. "One wrong doesn't make a right. Two wrongs, atleast makes me feel better." Not that I'm advocating it, so I better not be recieving angry phone calls from parents saying I'm corrupting their youth .

Lol...I'll have to remember that one...although, I prefer the "Three rights make a left", since no sense of vengeance is implied...just literal facts. ^^;

Plus it's a FOP quote. X)

Well we're jumping on the gang for acting human to Sissi (well, me anyways, can't speak for everyone else), is because the gang is jumping on Sissi for acting human. There are sometimes those times where you feel you should do something, you feel you should say something, feel you should help in some way, but you don't know how or what, and that leads you to do something that in hindsight, appears very foolish. It happens. If the gang has the right to be angry for an offense that they did not intend as such, shouldn't we have the right to be disappointed if we feel that it was a misjudgement or an overjudgment?

Sissi's "blabbing" is almost forgiveable...but her turning her back on them is not, and that's where I thought it was unfair to jump on the gang for giving her the cold shoulder, when she had done precisely the same to them ("technicalities" not withstanding in terms of alternate timelines).

The gang has a right to be angry, but the idea of "misjudgements" and "overjudgements" is...well, opinion, which is the whole thing of this debate.

Some feel they over-reacted, whereas I feel that considering Sissi ultimately appeared to not want any part in the thing deep at heart, and obviously had no concern for Aelita, I don't think it was completely unfair of them to not want to associate with her.

And again, over a year is still a lot of time to hold a grudge on someone for something that technically now, never happened.

*pokes her previous posts further above in this response about "grudges" and "technicalities"*

Only because Jim is terrible at following them. Weren't there multiple occasions where he attempted to follow the gang, and had he been as good as Sissi was in The Trap, could of followed them to the factory and blow the whole thing wide open. Though can we blame Jim for trying?

Err...that wasn't really the point of my other post. I was stating that Jim and the principal were innocent bystanders in "XANA Awakens" and "Girl of the Dreams" because they were complacently "led" there. Had they found the Factory of their own accord or followed someone there, it would have been a completely different story in terms of who's responsible for what.

Well, they are still children, who have full time jobs being students as well as their duties of taking on XANA. Jeremie especially, who probably most devoted to Aelita, is also the one most responsible for ensuring nothing goes awry, making sure Aelita is taken care of, is almost solely responsible with solving whatever problem they have for the Season, basically gets all the thankless work, without being the glamerous and heroic warrior. Kind of a lot of strain to put on children isn't it? Though still fun to watch.

This is, of course, completely ignoring the fact that he has a gigantic crush on her and a deep affection for her (unless that's what you meant by devoted). Jeremie's largest fault, is, ironically, his obsession towards protecting Aelita at all costs, even when there's the possibility that she could protect herself.

And indeed, it is a humongous strain...which is why I also can't figure out why everyone's so mad at them for turning Sissi away. She clearly wouldn't have been able to handle it then (and perhaps not even now), and can we honestly blame them for not wanting to put their own lives as well as Aelita's at risk with a questionable teammate?

A 40+ year old man is able to build his own supercomputer on a teacher's salary (and possibly stolen tech). And whatever money lost in creating it would be paid back 10-fold once it starts churning out goods regularly at an economical cost. And whats the saying? "If you can do it, I can do it also?" If XANA can do it, surely a crew of scientists working tirelessly could repeat the process. XANA was able to build and fit a Krabe inside a scanner until it burst forth. If thats not appearing out of thin air, I'm not sure what.

XANA had previously created that Krabe in Lyoko most likely. We never saw, so we don't know.

Franz Hopper's building of the Super Computer is still a mystery. He easily may have had funding from somewhere else (remember the Carthage Project?).

And sure the money would be paid-back ten-fold, but the initial money would still have to be found. It's the same reason why we don't have wind farms all over the place to provided electricity. They would pay for themselves eventually too, but there's not enough people to cough up the money in the first place (not to mention all of the political aspects involved).

Guess we judge success differently then. I think the attempt that brings in results is more successful than something that had better intent. While Yumi attempted to get people who we expected could help, atleast Sissi brought some help at all. That's better than nothing. I mean, Yumi can go attempt to get and fail to bring in Stephen Hawking to tutor me in Physics, but I'd consider Sissi more successful to bring in a PE teacher. Who knows, the PE teacher may have listened to his Physics teacher. In the end, I would think Sissi helped me out better, because atleast she brought somebody.

True...I am one of those who will give an A for effort and planning.

I'm not quite sure about your example...as it seems that you're basing far too much off of luck as opposed to actual realistic chances. A PE teacher might naturally know a bit about Physics, since Physics are needed in every sport known, but that's luck of the draw. You easily could get a PE teacher that's not only bad at PE, but also doesn't know the first thing about basic mathematics much less how to apply them to Physics.

But this seems completely unrelated to me...

Incidentally, you wouldn't send Yumi for Stephen Hawking for help, as Jeremie (or Odd) apparently would do the trick anyway.

Going through the episode, the first 3 people she notified were Principal Delmas, Mrs. Hertz, and one of the nuclear powerplant engineers. It was only after that failed did she attempt to try and get the firefighters to listen to her, the same ones who for a good deal of time earlier tried to disconnect the pylon, but to no avail. Wonder why she went to the firefighters and not stuck with the plant worker. And again, her pleas were very unpersuassive, it wasn't until the laser struck did the school finally evacuate. Probably the best decision she made to evacuate the school was to not try to persuade them and get away from them so they can see the danger from a (relatively) safe distance.

I'll have to watch that episode myself then...as I definitely don't remember the nuclear power plant being involved at all, much less having Yumi talk to a worker from one as that definitely would not make sense. I'll have to get a look at this myself.

As for "Satellite", she warned Principal Delmas, and he chose not to listen. She would have gotten the school evacuated had Principal Delmas again not stood in her way. Yumi's cases are completely different from Sissi's. She's trying to convince people who have no reason to believe her otherwise, and all of them are completely not open to the idea of a kid knowing more about something than them.

Well, actually, after they were they were detained by the police, they scolded her for messing up, since they were the only ones who can save Principal Delmas. Jeremie and Aelita told Sissi about Lyoko, before she even agreed to help them. Heck, prior to her questioning, her exact words pertaining to Jeremie and Aelita were "complete wacko pathological liars", that hardly sounds like her insisting they tell her everything, more like trying to convince her to help them with their unbelievable story. And unlike Yumi, they didn't try to cover it up to the extent Yumi did. Worked better, imo.

Again, Jeremie and Aelita were trying to convince a peer and not an adult and had full leisure to reveal what they wanted (Aelita in particular). Yumi did not.

And if I recall correctly, Sissi asked them what was going on with her dad before they decided they had to tell her.

Incidently, she was also the one responsible for the them being detained in the first place, as she ratted out their position when they tried to sneak away beforehand. Ulrich made it, but Jeremie and Aelita didn't.

Not really giving credit to a failed attempt. Just saying that one failed attempt should not be taken as worse than another when ultimately, the outcome was the same. Sissi shouldn't have recieved that much scorn for that long a time for her failed attempt.

Not even for turning her back on the group and figuring it was worth sacrificing Aelita? That's still the big hang-up here for me.

And like I said, I'm one of those who believes in giving an A for effort, and planning.

[animenologist offline]

If we start getting into different situations and different attacks, we're going to lose sight of the point. For this situation specifically, based on the all of the collective data we have on what Jim, her father's and Nurse Dorothy's skills are and what they're capable of, it is blatantly clear that it would have done nothing helpful to involve them, a point made even clearer that Jim was incapacitated so easily. Involving Jim would have been effective had XANA possessed a Sumo Wrestler. And perhaps if he'd tried the "monster materialization" ploy and Jim had been properly armed.

Her father is of no use in a battle. His use would come in negotiations and in authority, perhaps with the police, not in a battle against an electric monster. The same goes for Nurse Dorothy, although, perhaps, had Jeremie and Jim not been trapped in the room without anyone being able to help them, she might have been useful in keeping them alive or in tending to their wounds (and whatever wounds the group had incurred) with her knowledge. But she's not a fighter either.

The way I see it, based on all of what we know about Jim, the Principal, and Nurse Dorothy and their abilities and skills, involving them would have done absolutely nothing.

A different place, a different scenario, and maybe a few "Jeremifyings" and, sure, I can see them being a decent force to be reckoned with, but in this scenario, specific to "XANA Awakens" which has been the forefront of this debate, even with all angles considered, 99.9% they were just going to get toasted as well.

It also should have been obvious to Sissi that after witnessing something so dangerous, they would have wanted to shut the computer down. Perhaps she wasn't thinking clearly at the time, but she should at least have know what her father's reaction was going to be towards something that posed a threat towards his daughter (and the students under his care).

You're keeping it only to things related to combat, there are more ways to be helpful than combat. In all you the ways you've stated that Jim, the principal, and Nurse Dorothy are useless, it was that they would be unable to fight the giant lightning monster, and again, you are stating fault of Sissi's judgement in hindsight, since you keep mentioning Jim being incapacitated. In many cases of XANA attacks, someone stays behind not to fight the monster, but to make to do something to make it safe. Teddygozilla, Satellite, A Great Day, Mister Puck, XANA's Kiss, Vertigo, in all cases someone was left behind, sometimes to fight, sometimes to protect, all of them futile in the end, but could be considered helpful.

So say its the same attack, and a lightning monster is frying the gang. A way that would have been helpful without resorting to combat actively attempting to defeat it is that Jim attacks the giant electricity ball, and of course, gets defeat badly. In the time he's defeated, Nurse "Dorothy", Principal Delmas, and Sissi, could of dragged 4 kids out of the room and running like mad. Heck, considering an attempt where they actively do try to fight the beast, it would be similar to Ulrich fighting to protect Jeremie from Peter Duncan, or Yumi and Odd fighting against a possessed Jim, or Ulrich staying behind to fight that ghost in Is Anybody Out There?, they bought time, and you've stated that even given the futility of an attempt, like say in Seeing Is Believing, even if they've done all that they could and failed, the extra time would have been valuable.

I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of attacks where they shouldn't confront it directly, but it was done to benefit the others with extreme danger to them. I doubt most of the time they would consider which person is best for the job to stay behind, they just go with who volunteers. Its not like they say, hmm, this ones going to require a fight or this one requires a distraction or we need to evacuate the school, lets send so and so to do it. So not even the gang considers who is best for something when one goes to fight XANA on the real world and they actually know fully well what he's capable of. Sissi just got shocked and believes someone should help, anyone should help, and went with the 3 people immediately close to her.

I would think it would be obvious, and apparently, that was what Sissi wanted, which again I can't blame her entirely since I feel shutting down the computer is a completely valid point of view given the information we knew about it at the time. The adults thought it was right, Sissi agreed, and I see nothing wrong with her wanting the computer shut down.

As ese mae pointed out though, William involved himself (just as he later does in "Lyoko Minus 1"). Ulrich clearly would have rather dealt with that on his own as he tried twice to get William to go run away...or something. However, since William insisted, what was Ulrich to do when precious time was being wasted and others were in danger. Stand there and argue with him until he left? Not likely and also impossible (since William wasn't going to go anywhere).

William involved himself. He wasn't asked by Ulrich to do anything that he hadn't already volunteered/forced himself into. Having watched this episode again, Sissi had two chances to ditch Jim and her father. The first would have been while in the Infirmary (which also marks the place where she easily could have avoided telling them "everything"), and the second would have been outside the manhole. Her father asks if it was necessary for them to go down into the sewer, to which Sissi replies with a "guilt trip" sentence. She didn't have to make them follow her. And again, she blabs about Lyoko much too quickly for my taste in the Infirmary. She either wasn't thinking clearly, or she just didn't care about it at the time.

In A Bad Turn, William's insistance on helping after the first Krabe was "we'll handle it." After that, we're not entirely sure what transactions happenend next, but what we do know is that William and Ulrich eventually do separate, because William went to the factory, while Ulrich went to Yumi's house. A little misdirection, a little lie, anything really, would of kept William from discovering the location of the factory, or he could have just allowed him to help him out at Yumi's house. Sending William to the factory was not a necessity and given that they eventually do separate, wasn't impossible to lose him.

And it wouldn't have been the first time someone didn't act impulsively and quickly without thinking of the consequences. The point of the matter is that she wanted to bring help and whether or not you think they are capable of being beneficial to the situation (which I still believe possible, even for this particular attack), she wanted to bring them to help. It is arguable that if she didn't blab about Lyoko, they would have never come and made her rest in bed as if she was stressed to the point of near madness. All times she could of ditched them, she had no reason to, because she was actively trying to get them there and get them to act, which worked better than Yumi's attempt in Seeing is Believing, where once she finally did come out with it, it was too late to do anything, since she held it off for so long.

Perhaps she was simply expressing a slight frustration that Jeremie doesn't trust her judgements or ever agree with her on anything pertaining to Lyoko during that entire season? Jeremie's thoughts are always centered on keeping her safe, and in season 2, it got to the point where he'd disagree with her on just about any angle she suggested in regards to Lyoko.

Remember, trust is very important to this group. Jeremie wasn't trusting Aelita's advice on anything, even though, as the guardian of Lyoko and having spent infinitely more time there than he had, he should have taken her word for it, and trusted her judgement.

It's not about "being a big girl", so much as it is trying to get Jeremie to just listen to reason for a change, and stop choosing her safety over that of his other friends (which, while understandable since he's so lovesick...is kind of poor on his part, in a way ^^).

Except, it wasn't really listening to reason was it. Her actions were impulsive and without patient discussion of logic, she jumped the gun, and ultimately, listening to "reason" for this particular situation would have doomed them all. A good deal of her actions in Season 2 seemed to lack logical "reason", and mostly done out of emotion, impulse, and guilt, much different than how she normally acted in Season 1. Unchartered Territory, Missing Link, Ultmatum, Vertigo, Cold War, Deja Vu, Contact, The Key, all of them, she tried to convince Jeremie or acted against Jeremie with an emotional argument ("we just stand here and do nothing while XANA does this and that to our friends" for example) and imo, only 2 of the situations was it actually called for.

Even though Seeing Is Believing was ultimately fruitless, I respected Aelita for calmly asking for her right to vote and explaining why she voted that way. In Just in Time, I found it commendable that she waited until Jeremie failed and time was running out to reformat herself. In Zero Gravity Zone, she waited until necessary before trying that very risky maneuver (which was splendid). In Season 2, she's being incredibly human for a 12 year old girl, which while understandable and I can't say I'm mad at her for that, is not exactly what I would dictate as reason.

Pushing aside the leader thing then (since that was another debate entirely), assuming the group is completely equal in who calls the shots, then this is a matter of checks and balances. Jeremie's concerns are first to Aelita, second to anyone else who could be hurt. Yumi's concerns are both equally to Aelita and the anyone else who could be hurt, and I say this because in "Seeing is Believing" she sounds completely torn up about even suggesting the idea of revealing Lyoko to anyone, and the thought of Aelita gettin hurt. Ulrich's concerns...most likely cater to Yumi's first....and then everyone else's. Odd's concerns...skip that...who knows what concerns Odd (although, if one believes his flirting with Aelita to be indicative of something more, I'd say he'll favor Aelita's safety over others, just by a smidge).

So the group has Checks and Balances in terms of in what direction decisions on XANA's attacks go. Yumi's concern for everyone in general compensates for Jeremie's obsession with protecting Aelita from any possible harm, even at the expense of others. This may come partly from her maturity, but the unfortunate thing is, is that this gives her the unfortunate task of having to tell Jeremie when he's being reckless with everyone's safety. "Seeing is Believing" is a perfect example of this.

Aelita's concerns is where it gets tricky. While she obviously cares about her own life, she's got that martyr complex (or whatever you want to call it). Now, you mention that Aelita wouldn't have questioned it until it was brought up. However, couldn't it have been possible that Aelita wouldn't have understood what a nuclear attack like that would have done? Remember, back then, she had none of her memories, and only a general knowledge of the outside world. Even more so, even had she known something of radioactive and nuclear elements, it more would have been relegated to whatever knowledge she had of the supercomputer's Uranium based battery, which in her case, would have meant radiation was a good thing.

Aelita wouldn't have known to bring that up...and of course, Jeremie neglected to tell her what exactly nuclear elements do to the human body, and nor anything about previous nuclear disasters (Chernobyl). Had Aelita known about the attack's specific dangers, there's no doubt in my mind that she would have brought it up herself.

Again, the idea itself was well-intentioned, it still was fruitless, and raising the alarm to the authorities doesn't help, if she can't convince the authorities whats going on. Showing more concern towards Aelita's safety instead of the potential to fail, probably is going a bit overboard on Jeremie's part, but if they succeeded, there would have been no reason to worry, which they ultimately did. And if someone suggests a bad idea or a failure, usually blame rests with the guy who came up with the idea, even if the group as a whole, agreed to it, especially if the issue was forced.

As for Aelita, she has actively shown she would rather have the computer shut-down over people suffering. Heck, in XANA's Awaken, she pleaded with them to let her just be shut down instead of letting them continue after an attack by an electricity ball, which was only affecting themselves immediately. She was willing to turn herself in in Ultimatum for the lives of Odd and Yumi, even though it meant potentially worse things later (now that XANA would have her memories). She doesn't really need to know what a nuclear fallout would have done on what scale to think it would be best to shut her off (which there was no evidence to say she didn't). She would have asked them to shut her down anyways if given the chance.

So you honestly, even if it meant hypothetically losing a sibling because of what your friend had told the police, even afterwards having to look at pictures of your sibling and know he's not around anymore, even after having your siblings friends, your friends (who would have also known him) and the rest of your family, mourning his loss around you, you wouldn't harbor any ill feelings...even for a small amount of time?

Just picture it from Jeremie's point of view; every day, he'd come back to his dorm room, and see his computer there, with no Aelita (Maya) to pop up and say hello. Keeping in mind that he'd already established feelings for her, I think it'd have been hard for him to want to be near Sissi for awhile.

And Ulrich and Odd (and Yumi) having to see him every day like that, and knowing precisely why Aelita was no longer around as well, I find it terribly hard to believe that they'd want to be anywhere near Sissi either, if not out of their own hurt, but out of respect for Jeremie's own feelings.

If you honestly feel that you wouldn't initially show any sort of anger towards your friend for breaking your trust and getting your sibling hurt/killed, and provided your friend also felt no outward remorse for what he'd done (and caused, albeit indirectly)...

I won't state what my feelings on my hypothetical would be, as I've already stated my due and I think the outward remorse bit was a bit out of bounds, since we're not entirely sure how Sissi would have reacted after the computer shuts down, since they were only at it for a few minutes with tension still high from the recent attack on them.

At this point in time, he hadn't set up Aelita ("Maya") to talk to him constantly on his computer, we don't know how long he's been talking to her in a specific time frame, possible she only knew for a few days, and though certainly attached to this artificial intelligence on the screen, can't really say how closely bonded to her does he feel, though strong, not known whether or not redeemable. Though I guess it depends how long you think it will take to make strong, undying, emotional ties with someone, no matter how well you hit it off. She is not really like my sibling since she was "artificially" created and I've known my sibling all my life, while she was known for a few days. So its really hard to judge how it could've of gone. Having it happen after a few months would be more obvious at the devastation Jeremie would feel at Aelita's loss, but not entirely sure a few days would have been a point of no return. Then again, I can't really judge, because I've never been attached to something "non-human" before, sentient or otherwise.

You haven't cited specifics this time around, but most of your previous examples I have already pointed out to be different cases, in which the person "told" involved themself, or, as Aelita was present (who should be the ultimate decision maker on who knows as it connects to her health, IMO), it was obviously not needed to go to a vote.

And again, none of them asked specifically for the super computer to be shut off. That's Sissi's big line-crosser.

Except that its not entirely Aelita's decision to do a bunch of the stuff they've done. It would be entirely Aelita's decision if she wants to go and off herself, but not hers to decide whether an action is harmful or beneficial to the mission or the potential safety of others. And a bad decision made in haste, is still a bad decision. If we want to cite examples of decisions made without voting for the entire gang:

* virtualizing herself to Lyoko in Unchartered Territory
* transferring her code sequence in Missing Link
* setting up the return to the past without permission in The Chips are Down
* creating a new monster on Lyoko in Marabounta
* another unvoted, unneccessary return trip as well as the helmet in Temptation
* sending William to the factory in A Bad Turn
* telling Sissi about the factory (again, Aelita may have been there, but a decision that doesn't involve solely her is not solely hers to make) and knocking out Jeremie to have herself virtualized by herself in Ultimatum
* attempting to access the panel in Sector 5 in the middle of a mission when not necessary
* abandoning the white tower to go deactivate the one XANA activated
* shutting down the computer when another sentient being was discovered inside

The last of which follows the same argument as Sissi's line-crosser and plenty of which are arguably more dangerous as a whole than simply shutting down the computer to not only them, but to other uninvolved individuals.

I wasn't talking about severing the pylon's connections. I was talking about cutting the things that connected the nuclear plant specifically. Couldn't someone have simply cut the wires leading to the nuclear powerplant and not the pylon itself? Or couldn't a block been set-up around the powerplant to block the electrical flow? They wouldn't have to touch the pylon, since that was clearly a lost cause...it would more be about ensuring that the nuclear plant couldn't be hit.

"Slim majority" is really rather an irrelevant term here...considering that it's only five of them, and Jeremie's always going to vote in favor of Aelita's safety. That leaves a 4-1 vote...which in itself is a slim majority too considering that the only other majority left is a 3-2.

The difference is the vote itself and the group's approval. Sissi didn't have it. Yumi did.

Regardless of the plan's failure, that's what still counts. Had Yumi failed as well as the plan to stop XANA, there wouldn't have been any chance to get mad at her anyway. What's more, during "Seeing is Believing", Jeremie had no real status on her "success or failure"...he could only tell what the pylon was doing, and what ever Yumi reported.

Plus, Yumi's idea failed because of incompetent safety units. Sissi's failed because it was ultimately a bad plan to start with.

And again, the vote's the thing. If you're going to tell someone about Lyoko, either the group votes (or with Aelita's own presence and agreement). Otherwise, you're in big trouble.

Wouldn't that effectively mean "severing the pylon". Any attempt to keep it from the nuclear power plant would mean that they effectively need to isolate the pylon, which would include requiring severing all possible connections to the pylon to plant one way or another. Since they've stated that it was not possible to sever connection and isolate the pylon, I don't see how anything else could have been done differently that would of prevented the attack using conventional means. It happened the same way in Claustraphobia and Zero Gravity Zone. They attempted to stop XANA by blocking electricity flow either to the cafeteria in the former or Jeremie hacking the network and re-routing flow in the latter. It couldn't be done. And if it couldn't be done in those episodes, even with Jeremie on the supercomputer, its not going to be done there.

Refer to my list of things done in Season 2 that didn't have full support by the group, several of which led to disaster.

Jeremie had status on the progress of the plan. The pylon not changing itself is showing that the authorities aren't doing anything useful to help the matter, and Jeremie recieved a phone call prior to Yumi's attempt to alert the firefighters that the principal and the plant worker didn't believe her. And calling them incompetent when you don't know the steps they took or what measures they had in place is kinda pushing it. They probably have been working on it for hours, the city was in total blackout, you can't just say the plant, the firefighters, the government officials, anyone else you can potentially involve didn't try to do something about it to the best of their ability. Maybe the idea of trying to alert the authorities while avoiding telling them about Lyoko was as doomed to fail as Sissi's was?

This is going to end up being a nitpick of every time the group has shown human error or weakness in some respect, if we're not careful, as opposed to staying focused on the two key elements as to why everyone got so mad at Sissi.

1) She blabbed the secret of Lyoko, the super computer, XANA and Aelita to three adults without the group's vote of consent.

2) She then turned her back on the group and said the super computer should be shut down.

Any comparisons outside of this are going to bring this whole thing out of focus.

These kids are human, they're not machines. Emotions shouldn't factor into this past the emotions expressed in reaction to Sissi's actions (as well as her own).

Yumi in "Routine" is a completely un-related case, because then why not blame Ulrich as well, or Odd even (since he got involved then too), or Sissi for starting the entire thing.

Like I've said before, I didn't approve of Jeremie's actions in "Girl of the Dreams", but as he could plead insanity (due to lack of sleep) it can be considered an exception.

Ulrich in "The Chips are Down" is a case of using the RTTP for monetary gains and disregarding the risk of making XANA stonger...and their treatment of him afterwards speaks for itself. He does not get off scot-free.

Aelita in "Missing Link" is in no way a betrayal of Jeremie's trust, since Jeremie had long ago shown that he had no trust in her judgement to start with.

"Franz Hopper" was only Odd and Ulrich, as Aelita clearly did not turn her back on Jeremie (but had to stay since she was needed to stop XANA, and because of her "father's" presence. Yumi expressed no betrayal towards Jeremie, short of not wanting to really discuss the "brain tumor" and not going after him (which again, was because she was needed, since you place alot of importance on being present to fight).

But again none of these cases has true comparisons to the key elements in Sissi's case.

Most of the situations I've listed are acts in which a particular group member takes action without consent of the entire group. Some of which share parallels to Sissi's situation in some way shape or form.

I'll skip Yumi's case, since I agree, its kinda unrelated.

If you're going to give Jereme a plea of insanity for a lack of sleep in "The Girl of the Dreams", Sissi just got zapped by a large source of electricity, something of much greater magnitude than simple lack of sleep. Allowing Jeremie get by, when Sissi's situation was more stressful is not fair.

Ulrich is allowed a chance of redemption, since he later gets to fight for their forgiveness. Sissi is not given such a chance, and Ulrich's motive and response was more selfish than Sissi's and more dangerous as well. Atleast Sissi did it for the gang's well-being and actually knew semi-accurately what was going on. Ulrich jumped the gun, before they even know that Yumi was actually moving.

Aelita's plan was as bad as Sissi's, lack of trust or respect for her judgemnent be darned. The fact that Jeremie wouldn't agree with it anyways, doesn't make her justified in continuing with it, especially without fully thinking out the consequences. Something that a lot of the gang has been guilty of, at times. Don't see why Sissi is supposed to be different.

Aelita is more important at the time than Yumi was. She would be required to access the panel, but atleast she tried to stop Jeremie. Yumi just allowed him to go on his way, without any sympathy. Being present for the fight is important, but sometimes crowed control is necessary on the real world, and risks sometimes need to be taken in order to ensure that what happens on Lyoko can go on with someone outside dying. But at the very least, the plan on the outside should yield benefit. Seeing is Believing was fruitless and did nothing that actually helped them outside of Lyoko, while hurting them inside.

I've listed several cases where point 1 is taken. Turning your back on some one was also done several times. Though you have a point in that only Aelita has ever attempted to shut down the computer against the wishes of the group. But there were multiple cases where the gang has done one of the 2 points on a specific occassion and some of them were guilty of commiting both (though not in any single case) and a few of them were dangerous, yet they are allowed a chance at forgiveness or complete pardon, something Sissi was not given.

Hmmm...perhaps that's a better comparison...but it still doesn't quite hit the right mark. Millie and Tamiya aren't part of Ulrich's crowd...and he doesn't have alot of interaction with them. They're not exactly "friends" though is the thing.

Rarely are analogies completely 100% accurate, but its still to prove a point that residual damage can occur to those nearby but not directly related. That was mostly the point.

Lol...I'll have to remember that one...although, I prefer the "Three rights make a left", since no sense of vengeance is implied...just literal facts. ^^;

Plus it's a FOP quote. X)

That quote was a Weekenders quote and I prefer it more myself since it actually is a jab at the saying itself, other than a random reversal of it. Still FOP always had some nice quotes.

Err...that wasn't really the point of my other post. I was stating that Jim and the principal were innocent bystanders in "XANA Awakens" and "Girl of the Dreams" because they were complacently "led" there. Had they found the Factory of their own accord or followed someone there, it would have been a completely different story in terms of who's responsible for what.

Well, they did technically found their way and had interest in finding their way (albeit with Sissi's help, but Jeremie and the gang didn't know that) as well as with Mr. and Mrs. Ishiyama in tow, in Exploration.

This is, of course, completely ignoring the fact that he has a gigantic crush on her and a deep affection for her (unless that's what you meant by devoted). Jeremie's largest fault, is, ironically, his obsession towards protecting Aelita at all costs, even when there's the possibility that she could protect herself.

And indeed, it is a humongous strain...which is why I also can't figure out why everyone's so mad at them for turning Sissi away. She clearly wouldn't have been able to handle it then (and perhaps not even now), and can we honestly blame them for not wanting to put their own lives as well as Aelita's at risk with a questionable teammate?

Again, we're (well me, can't really speak for anyone else) not against the team turning her away from being a teammate. She has questionable goals and has shown herself unable to hold herself under pressure. That we don't disagree with. But they turned their back on her in the real world as well, which is partially what this debate is about. She did something out of concern and followed her conscience. The fact that it turned out badly is reason not to include her, but not to basically treat her like dirt in the real world. If a well-meaning and hard-working student tries her best at school but can't grasp the material, you give her a bad grade, but you don't stop teaching her because you feel she'll never learn.

XANA had previously created that Krabe in Lyoko most likely. We never saw, so we don't know.

Franz Hopper's building of the Super Computer is still a mystery. He easily may have had funding from somewhere else (remember the Carthage Project?).

And sure the money would be paid-back ten-fold, but the initial money would still have to be found. It's the same reason why we don't have wind farms all over the place to provided electricity. They would pay for themselves eventually too, but there's not enough people to cough up the money in the first place (not to mention all of the political aspects involved).

So if it can be created in Lyoko, it can be materialized. Don't see how that can't be applied to real world objects given time and research.

The initial money and time compared to a wind farm is not the same. A wind farm also takes up lots of land and also has a major drawback in that the power given back with relations to time, money, and space is a lot less than a dam or fossil fuels and energy storage of wind energy compared to usage is small that if the wind stops, the thing its powering most likely stops as well. A materialization plant would be a whole lot more compact, more economical (it was made in 1994, the money used to create it has to be less than that in 2006), and the potential gains are much stronger than a wind farm. Think, replicating barrels and barrels of oil on a bar of uranium or tons and tons of food or raw supplies like metals, fresh water, rubber, plants, things other than just energy. It has a much greater potential for benefit with a wider variety of possibilities.

True...I am one of those who will give an A for effort and planning.

I'm not quite sure about your example...as it seems that you're basing far too much off of luck as opposed to actual realistic chances. A PE teacher might naturally know a bit about Physics, since Physics are needed in every sport known, but that's luck of the draw. You easily could get a PE teacher that's not only bad at PE, but also doesn't know the first thing about basic mathematics much less how to apply them to Physics.

But this seems completely unrelated to me...

Incidentally, you wouldn't send Yumi for Stephen Hawking for help, as Jeremie (or Odd) apparently would do the trick anyway.

I'm basically following what my speech teacher told me. You can be the hardest worker in the world, but if the results don't work, I'm not going to give you an A or even a passing grade if you did it completely wrong. How about for another exmple, I ask you to build me a plane to fly across the Atlantic. Yum attempts to build me a jet airplane and fails and only gave me a shell and some spare parts. Sissi successfuly builds me the Wright Brothers' Flyer. Yumi's plan though better, failed, while Sissi who gave me an aircraft not likely to do the work, atleast gets me farther. Sissi's plan though not quite completely thought out, had a greater potential for benefit because it actually brought help, Yumi's didn't do anything.

And it was only an analogy, didn't mean I actually expected to send Yumi to get me Stephen Hawking as a Physics tutor, just that the overall effectiveness and success of their particular plans, Sissi's was more favorable.

I'll have to watch that episode myself then...as I definitely don't remember the nuclear power plant being involved at all, much less having Yumi talk to a worker from one as that definitely would not make sense. I'll have to get a look at this myself.

As for "Satellite", she warned Principal Delmas, and he chose not to listen. She would have gotten the school evacuated had Principal Delmas again not stood in her way. Yumi's cases are completely different from Sissi's. She's trying to convince people who have no reason to believe her otherwise, and all of them are completely not open to the idea of a kid knowing more about something than them.

In what way are they different again, based on that line of reasoning? I doubt the principal had reason to believe Yumi that getting off the school was a matter of life and death. And had she not left the group, that would have been disastrous since the Satellite targeted Yumi specifically, and her standing in a crowd would have done a lot of damage. Same as Sissi trying to convince her father and Jim that the gang was involved in a dangerous activity and are in grave danger. And in both cases, the principal did not want to believe them at first (for whatever reason).

Again, Jeremie and Aelita were trying to convince a peer and not an adult and had full leisure to reveal what they wanted (Aelita in particular). Yumi did not.

And if I recall correctly, Sissi asked them what was going on with her dad before they decided they had to tell her.

Incidently, she was also the one responsible for the them being detained in the first place, as she ratted out their position when they tried to sneak away beforehand. Ulrich made it, but Jeremie and Aelita didn't.

A peer who has been known not to care is better than an adult who has been known not to care is better, how? And Yumi had just about as much leniency to what she needed to reveal as them, whatever it would take to get the authorities to act (if that did any good).

And Sissi didn't say anything to them about her dad prior to them saying anything. The closest to it they got was that Sissi ratted them out saying that they constantly hung out with Odd and Yumi and that they may have known something, when the police asked.

And she probably wouldn't have bothered if they didn't take Sissi in for questioning as well, and misery loves company. But in either case, Jeremie and Aelita blabbed first, before Sissi asked anything, and had no reason to believe them right away.

Not even for turning her back on the group and figuring it was worth sacrificing Aelita? That's still the big hang-up here for me.

And like I said, I'm one of those who believes in giving an A for effort, and planning.

I guess thats where we ultimately differ. I can't blame a person for taking a valid POV and I believe results and consequences are what truly matters in the end, and motive and effort only as commendation. And this is not an ends justify the means kinda thing, because effects of the means are also parts of the consequences.

I'm surprised how big this particular debate is growing, our first 2 responses have taken up 12.5 pages and our responses seem to be getting larger and larger. Can only imagine what can happen once we get to season 4, where supposedly a lot of meat is going to appear. It just feels weird that a debate would be this large based on one episode and discussing Sissi of all characters. I would of thought Aelita would of been the character to spawn the most debate.

[TB3]

Sissi is a character who inspires debate because she is far more bipolar than the rest of the cast - it's easy to like or hate her, and people tend to go to either extreme when taking stances on her.

My personal reason is that Sissi was the star of the first episode I saw, Log Book, and consequently made a strong impression on me - although clearly a good person at heart she showed a sneaky side, and yet I feel the group behaved worse towards her than she towards them.

For example, Sissi pours out her heart in her diary entry, debating the moral consequences of stealing Ulrich's diary and making clear she is desperate for some attention from him and that this act of theft is a last resort - Yumi's response though contains not a shred of empathy, just a condemnation of Sissi's methods.

Likewise at the end Ulrich mocks her and then returns to his dorm to a hero's welcome - do the guys really cherish their petty victories over Sissi THAT MUCH!

Other examples of malicious deeds towards her include Big Bug as pointed out previously. What I find d*mning though is that though Sissi may not remember her moments of tenderness or heroism, the gang sure do - and yet aside from those quick moments at the end of each episode, they treat her no differently.

I think through Season 2 Sissi was also trying to move closer to the group, and yet they still wouldn't open up to her, and so out of bitterness she reverted to her S1 persona in S3.

My fear is that Sissi having fallen back into this rut will not climb out - I WANT her, with all my heart, to continue developing as a character, but as Season Three progresses it seems more and more that she is just being used as a comic foil for the group, which after the progress she had made is tragic.

My other reason for loving Sissi is also that she is a secondary character - and I tend to associate more with these figures than the core cast in near any show or film I watch - sadly though these characters who I care for rarely get the development needed or deserved, which usually leaves me feeling miserable or embittered.

Come-on Sissi - show that tender, compassionate, brave and self-sacrificing character you've been developing for two years - you became a three-dimensional character to us - please don't sink down to a series of cliched, 1-dimensional cameo appearances.

I'm rootin' for ya girl!

[Sithking Zero offline]

(Sniff) that was beautiful, and kind of what i've been saying...

[Mewberries151]

Sissi is a character who inspires debate because she is far more bipolar than the rest of the cast - it's easy to like or hate her, and people tend to go to either extreme when taking stances on her.

My personal reason is that Sissi was the star of the first episode I saw, Log Book, and consequently made a strong impression on me - although clearly a good person at heart she showed a sneaky side, and yet I feel the group behaved worse towards her than she towards them.

For example, Sissi pours out her heart in her diary entry, debating the moral consequences of stealing Ulrich's diary and making clear she is desperate for some attention from him and that this act of theft is a last resort - Yumi's response though contains not a shred of empathy, just a condemnation of Sissi's methods.

Likewise at the end Ulrich mocks her and then returns to his dorm to a hero's welcome - do the guys really cherish their petty victories over Sissi THAT MUCH!

Stealing is wrong. There's no excuse for that. Blackmail is wrong, and there's no excuse for that either.

It doesn't matter if she's desperate, and it doesn't matter how infatuated she is with him, stealing his diary and then threatening to use his own personal thoughts against him was horrible!

You don't see Ulrich stooping to stealing William's diary and then threatening him to break off his friendship with Yumi (not only because he'd understand how wrong that is...but Yumi would probably kill him if she found out).

That was a nasty trick she pulled. The way I see it, if we're going to let Sissi slide with behavior like theivery and blackmail then we have to excuse the group when they do it to her (or for whatever other cause). Heck, even Odd realized that blackmail was wrong in "Straight to Heart".

And why should Yumi feel sorry for someone who's exploiting her best friend in one of the worst ways possible? What kind of friend would that make her, in return? She shouldn't have to have empathy for her either, because what Sissi did was low. We all know Yumi, at the time, probably would have liked to know what Ulrich thought of her, or how he felt about her...she had the opportunity to read his diary too, but she didn't out of respect for her friend's privacy.

If Sissi had wanted to prove her character, she should have returned the diary to Ulrich and apologized of her own accord (like Odd did to Jim in "Straight to Heart"). If Ulrich had still gotten overly mad with her then, okay, that'd be decently jerk-y of him, but because she didn't...is it fair to get so angry at the victim and not at all with the thief?

Also, I don't recall Ulrich mocking her at the end. All he says is, "Oh hello, Sissi. Were you waiting for me?"

That's all. No mockery, no nothing. Sissi sees that he has his diary back and takes off, because she had nothing to blackmail him with.

I'm not saying this because I don't like Sissi or something like that. True, Sissi is not my favorite character, but I'm just trying to point out that some of the things she does are wrong, regardless of what spirit they're in...and that getting mad at Team Lyoko for reacting angrily to her own wrong-doings, is in itself, unfair to their characters as well.

I'm also defending my own favorite character, Ulrich, in this, since he's been getting more harping on from "XANA Awakens" than anyone else, and he honestly doesn't deserve it...or at least not all of it, in looking at the full picture.

Other examples of malicious deeds towards her include Big Bug as pointed out previously. What I find d*mning though is that though Sissi may not remember her moments of tenderness or heroism, the gang sure do - and yet aside from those quick moments at the end of each episode, they treat her no differently.

I've already posted my thoughts about "Big Bug". The prank was unnecessary, but then again, so was Sissi's behavior towards Millie and Tamiya...who have done absolutely nothing to her at all.

I think through Season 2 Sissi was also trying to move closer to the group, and yet they still wouldn't open up to her, and so out of bitterness she reverted to her S1 persona in S3.

"The Chips are Down", "Ultimatum", "Vertigo", "Contact"...all of those episodes involve the group (Ulrich in particular) being very friendly to her, and including her in the team in some way.

What's more, we haven't seen alot of her interacting with the group to make that judgement yet. Clearly she and Odd are at...well, odds with each other, but...depending on what way you want to look at that... ^^

Everyone else has been pretty ambivalent to her...they haven't included her, to be sure...but they haven't been mean to her either (Ulrich's brisk exit with Yumi in "Straight to Heart" does not count...had that been anyone, particularly William, the result would have been the same as he just wanted to hear what Yumi had to say)...at least not yet?

My fear is that Sissi having fallen back into this rut will not climb out - I WANT her, with all my heart, to continue developing as a character, but as Season Three progresses it seems more and more that she is just being used as a comic foil for the group, which after the progress she had made is tragic.

Well...I don't know as much about what season 3 holds as you do...but from the looks of things, while she isn't as featured a character, she certainly seems to be holding her own in terms of dealing with Odd (I think he's yet to out "diss" her this season), and the group, as a whole, has been fairly friendly to her. Again, they haven't included her in anything big, but they're not being cruel to her in any way.

You're keeping it only to things related to combat, there are more ways to be helpful than combat. In all you the ways you've stated that Jim, the principal, and Nurse Dorothy are useless, it was that they would be unable to fight the giant lightning monster, and again, you are stating fault of Sissi's judgement in hindsight, since you keep mentioning Jim being incapacitated. In many cases of XANA attacks, someone stays behind not to fight the monster, but to make to do something to make it safe. Teddygozilla, Satellite, A Great Day, Mister Puck, XANA's Kiss, Vertigo, in all cases someone was left behind, sometimes to fight, sometimes to protect, all of them futile in the end, but could be considered helpful.

Okay...so, wait, now you're saying that it's good when someone is left behind to fight the real world attacks or protect people in the real world...tell me again, then, why Yumi is being faulted for "Seeing is Believing" not only because it "failed" but because her leaving lost them an extra fighter.

It seems to me that you want to apply slightly similar scenarios to Sissi in the most positive way, yet point out every negative aspect when the Lyoko crew (particularly Yumi or Ulrich) uses a comparable tactic, and with better thought for Lyoko's safety on top of that.

Sissi's tactics failed, yet they're still helpful? This seems to be a complete opposite of what you've been arguing beforehand

So say its the same attack, and a lightning monster is frying the gang. A way that would have been helpful without resorting to combat actively attempting to defeat it is that Jim attacks the giant electricity ball, and of course, gets defeat badly. In the time he's defeated, Nurse "Dorothy", Principal Delmas, and Sissi, could of dragged 4 kids out of the room and running like mad. Heck, considering an attempt where they actively do try to fight the beast, it would be similar to Ulrich fighting to protect Jeremie from Peter Duncan, or Yumi and Odd fighting against a possessed Jim, or Ulrich staying behind to fight that ghost in Is Anybody Out There?, they bought time, and you've stated that even given the futility of an attempt, like say in Seeing Is Believing, even if they've done all that they could and failed, the extra time would have been valuable.

The extra time is valuable...but only when there's someone along with Aelita to deactivate the tower. Taking the four kids and running away wouldn't have helped Aelita deactivate a tower, since no one would be left to be virtualized and escort her to the tower. And there'd be no one around to shut the super computer off...because they all would have run away. Extra time is useless when there's no one to buy extra time for, which would be the case here.

Plus, how would they get them out of the room with XANA shooting electricity through it (since it's a completely metallic room). Even if Jim went in first, as soon as the others followed, they'd get zapped too. The Lightning monster wasn't targeting anyone specifically...it was, like I said, just shooting electricity throughout the room (thus why Jeremie and then Jim got nailed).

So again, there's nothing plausibly helpful, either offensively or defensively, that Jim, the Principal, and Nurse Dorothy could have done to help.

I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of attacks where they shouldn't confront it directly, but it was done to benefit the others with extreme danger to them. I doubt most of the time they would consider which person is best for the job to stay behind, they just go with who volunteers. Its not like they say, hmm, this ones going to require a fight or this one requires a distraction or we need to evacuate the school, lets send so and so to do it. So not even the gang considers who is best for something when one goes to fight XANA on the real world and they actually know fully well what he's capable of. Sissi just got shocked and believes someone should help, anyone should help, and went with the 3 people immediately close to her.

Fair enough...but they didn't really volunteer.

If it's a case of her panicking and going to the first people she could think of for help, okay, I'll give her that, but she still didn't have to turn her back on her friends afterwards, nor initially blab so much about Lyoko without any real prompting.

Also, in point of case...the most capable one tends to volunteer for the real world defense. Ulrich and Yumi are better real world fighters than Odd, and they know that. The few times that Odd stayed behind in the real world were mostly because he'd gotten stuck in the real world for reasons completely different from the impending attack.

I would think it would be obvious, and apparently, that was what Sissi wanted, which again I can't blame her entirely since I feel shutting down the computer is a completely valid point of view given the information we knew about it at the time. The adults thought it was right, Sissi agreed, and I see nothing wrong with her wanting the computer shut down.

I don't think it was a valid point of view though...as I said earlier, even if they didn't know Aelita was originally human, she was still a thinking and feeling being. Whether or not Sissi is to be blamed for being willing to sacrifice someone else's existence (without even asking said being first, which would have been manageable) depends on one's own ethics then...in which case, I'm assuming we've reached an impass.

In A Bad Turn, William's insistance on helping after the first Krabe was "we'll handle it." After that, we're not entirely sure what transactions happenend next, but what we do know is that William and Ulrich eventually do separate, because William went to the factory, while Ulrich went to Yumi's house. A little misdirection, a little lie, anything really, would of kept William from discovering the location of the factory, or he could have just allowed him to help him out at Yumi's house. Sending William to the factory was not a necessity and given that they eventually do separate, wasn't impossible to lose him.

Actually...sending William to the Factory was a necessity, seeing as how Odd was about to get nailed by another Krabe (which likely would have gone after Jeremie then). It's just as easy to assume that Ulrich called Jeremie back, asked about Odd's predicament, and then asked if involving William further was too risky. Since we don't know fully what happened (thanks to an advantageous time lapse, for both sides), it's really hard to use "A Bad Turn" as an example one way or the other.

And it wouldn't have been the first time someone didn't act impulsively and quickly without thinking of the consequences. The point of the matter is that she wanted to bring help and whether or not you think they are capable of being beneficial to the situation (which I still believe possible, even for this particular attack), she wanted to bring them to help. It is arguable that if she didn't blab about Lyoko, they would have never come and made her rest in bed as if she was stressed to the point of near madness. All times she could of ditched them, she had no reason to, because she was actively trying to get them there and get them to act, which worked better than Yumi's attempt in Seeing is Believing, where once she finally did come out with it, it was too late to do anything, since she held it off for so long.

And again we're back to faulting Yumi for better judgement of help, because she ultimately failed too. This is getting a tad flip-floppy to me...or perhaps I'm not understanding your posts fully.

Yumi stays behind, picks the correct people to get help from (and who could have stopped XANA's plan or delayed it at least), and due to those individual's own sense of "reality", has her plan fail (and herself faulted).

Sissi leads three civilians into a fight against a monster they're not going to be able to do anything against, either offensively or defensively (see my posts above), endangering three more lives in the process and also fails (yet shouldn't be faulted for poor planning at the very least)?

In any case, you said it yourself, "All times she could of ditched them, she had no reason to, because she was actively trying to get them there and get them to act,". She got them to act, but in a way that was completely hurtful to the group's cause. That's worse, I'd say, than getting no action, but at least keeping the group's cause relatively safe.

And, though I know you've said your opinion of it already, she still then turned her back on them and went with her father's judgements (and she always goes against those to begin with) as opposed to believing in her friends.

Except, it wasn't really listening to reason was it. Her actions were impulsive and without patient discussion of logic, she jumped the gun, and ultimately, listening to "reason" for this particular situation would have doomed them all. A good deal of her actions in Season 2 seemed to lack logical "reason", and mostly done out of emotion, impulse, and guilt, much different than how she normally acted in Season 1. Unchartered Territory, Missing Link, Ultmatum, Vertigo, Cold War, Deja Vu, Contact, The Key, all of them, she tried to convince Jeremie or acted against Jeremie with an emotional argument ("we just stand here and do nothing while XANA does this and that to our friends" for example) and imo, only 2 of the situations was it actually called for.

Jeremie wasn't listening to logic here either though...he didn't want her to go through with her plan because he didn't want her to lose her ability to be materialized, not because he sensed something deeper in XANA's attack. By all means, Aelita's plan should have worked and they all had figured that XANA's attack had been aimed at Yumi and making her a target for complete elimination and not at Aelita for a change. Jeremie was being just as illogical, and, if you want to be blunt about it "selfish".

I'm guessing that at least one of the two episodes, in your opinion, that Aelita's emotional arguement was justified was "Cold War", in which I agree. However, I disagree that the others weren't called for either (with the possible exception of Deja Vu, which again, was because of XANA's messing with her mind, and not her own true actions). I have no idea what she did in "Unchartered Territory" that wasn't called for. Considering the abuse she had been getting (...and look who was doing the abusing), I don't think it's unreasonable that she fled to Lyoko (her only true home that she knew of) to find some inner peace. How is that different from Ulrich sulking in his room (or the forest) or Jeremie diving into his various computer programs and such whenever he's faced with a problem.

"Missing Link", I've already expressed why that was justified as well, and if we're going to get mad at her for anything she does in "Ultimatum", then Jeremie should be faulted as well for being "as stubborn as a fool", and for gambling with his friend's lives and welfare. The only thing slightly back-handed was getting Sissi to knock him out, since she should have done that herself...but she'd probably get yelled at for that too, and plus, it's not in her to hit someone.

"Vertigo" was in no way her fault at all. Jeremie's impulsiveness got them into that mess, so anything Aelita did afterwards (which I'm actually not sure of what "impulsiveness" she's being accused of in this case), is ultimately because Jeremie messed up.

"Deja Vu" I already discussed briefly, and "Contact" I don't quite remember very well (other than Sissi was involved again through Franz Hopper's devices), so I'll leave that at a "maybe", until I can check my tapes on it.

"The Key" is another debate entirely...because it's just going to loop back into that whole "suicide/martyrdom for the better good" thing, so I'm really not going to get into that. However...in "The Key", wasn't it also illogical of Jeremie to dive into Sector 5 so quickly afterwards? Perhaps watching and waiting to see if XANA would react first to the threat of being shut off again, before acting would have been a better planned course.

As a note to the Jeremie fans though...don't kill me. X) I love the little Einstein, but he does have a stubborn and protective streak in him (it's a virtue and a fault), but it makes him extra loveable. It's just that, in this debate, I don't feel it's fair to get mad at Aelita for being stubborn and perhaps illogical, if she was also having to deal with an equally stubborn and perhaps illogical partner. After all...when in Rome...

Even though Seeing Is Believing was ultimately fruitless, I respected Aelita for calmly asking for her right to vote and explaining why she voted that way. In Just in Time, I found it commendable that she waited until Jeremie failed and time was running out to reformat herself. In Zero Gravity Zone, she waited until necessary before trying that very risky maneuver (which was splendid). In Season 2, she's being incredibly human for a 12 year old girl, which while understandable and I can't say I'm mad at her for that, is not exactly what I would dictate as reason.

To be fair though, Jeremie, for a twelve year old boy, wasn't following all that much reason either, and in the same exact episodes, with obvious evidence and reasons.

And like I said, I'm not mad at him for trying to protect someone he loves. Goodness knows, I think that's very romantic, chivalrous, and cute of him to go the lengths he does for Aelita. However, one has to admit, he can be "stubborn as a fool" at times, and Aelita's got quite a bit of right to get frustrated with him when he does.

Again, the idea itself was well-intentioned, it still was fruitless, and raising the alarm to the authorities doesn't help, if she can't convince the authorities whats going on. Showing more concern towards Aelita's safety instead of the potential to fail, probably is going a bit overboard on Jeremie's part, but if they succeeded, there would have been no reason to worry, which they ultimately did. And if someone suggests a bad idea or a failure, usually blame rests with the guy who came up with the idea, even if the group as a whole, agreed to it, especially if the issue was forced.

You're, referring though, to succeeding in Lyoko, which indeed they did. However, had they not warned anyone and then failed in Lyoko (which was what Yumi was worried about) and either lost Aelita or couldn't deactivate the tower in the amount of time before the pylon surged, what would be their chances of stopping the real world attack. None. However, there was a chance that, even if they failed in Lyoko, if the correct authorities were warned and the right action taken to stop and electrical attack on the plant (not involving the pylon, but perhaps the connections to the plant itself), then the failure in Lyoko at least wouldn't be even more so over-shadowed by the failure in the real world. That was Yumi's thinking, I'm sure of it. She was taking the precaution of, "what could be done" if the group failed in Lyoko.

And again, I disagree that the issue was forced...there's no such thing as a "forced vote", since a vote is done voluntarily. Otherwise, it's just a forced admission, and that was absolutely not the case here.

As for Aelita, she has actively shown she would rather have the computer shut-down over people suffering. Heck, in XANA's Awaken, she pleaded with them to let her just be shut down instead of letting them continue after an attack by an electricity ball, which was only affecting themselves immediately. She was willing to turn herself in in Ultimatum for the lives of Odd and Yumi, even though it meant potentially worse things later (now that XANA would have her memories). She doesn't really need to know what a nuclear fallout would have done on what scale to think it would be best to shut her off (which there was no evidence to say she didn't). She would have asked them to shut her down anyways if given the chance.

There was no evidence to say she did know either though. An electricity based direct attack is different...and more easily understood in computer terms. To her, it could easily be viewed as the equivalent of lightning causing a power surge and frying a computer, although in this case, we'd have humans instead of a computer. Nuclear activity would not be the same case, as the computer runs on a radioactive elemental battery, and to Aelita, that could signify to her that nuclear chemicals were good. She wouldn't know that humans can't exactly run on radioactive chemicals like a super computer can.

Ultimatum is an extenuating circumstance, since by then she had a much wider knowledge of how the Earth worked, and because of her prevailing martyr complex.

And even if she had known what a nuclear attack would do, as you said, she would have asked that the super computer be shut down, "if given the chance"...but Jeremie didn't want to give her that chance. Foregoing all values of protectiveness and love in this scenario, isn't that a tad back-handed of him that he didn't make any move to involve her in what was going on in the real world? He knew precisely what she'd say, and that's why he didn't make any mention of it...so, she wasn't fairly "given a chance" until Yumi said something.

I won't state what my feelings on my hypothetical would be, as I've already stated my due and I think the outward remorse bit was a bit out of bounds, since we're not entirely sure how Sissi would have reacted after the computer shuts down, since they were only at it for a few minutes with tension still high from the recent attack on them.

Fair enough. I was hypothetically asking for "your" feelings on it, but I admit that was a tad out of bounds for me to pick at personally, and I'd like to express my apologies there.

However, considering this is the feelings of the group we're discussing, in particular Jeremie's strong feelings for Aelita, and what their reactions would have been, remorse in general, isn't all that off-topic.

We don't know Sissi's reaction for sure (although, if she was going to ask for the super computer to be shut down, and then feel badly afterwards, that's still short-sighted of her), but we know what the group's was, particularly Jeremie's, and that's where the big point is.

They would have been hurt badly, and because the breaking of trust in itself, was a big wound, it's really not unreasonable that they got angry with Sissi, regardless of whether she remembered or not, because they still do, and therefore won't be apt to trust her again right away.

Like I said a long while back, the only way this will ever be truly settled is if Sissi gets another chance at deciding (in her own opinion and free will) what to do with the super computer (turn on or turn off) while another life still depends on it's activation, although considering Aelita's free of it now...I'm not sure how that'd work...Unless one of the Team finds themselves trapped for a time again in Lyoko (if it's Yumi again...that'd make for a decently fair test...though my pity to Yumi then).

At this point in time, he hadn't set up Aelita ("Maya") to talk to him constantly on his computer, we don't know how long he's been talking to her in a specific time frame, possible she only knew for a few days, and though certainly attached to this artificial intelligence on the screen, can't really say how closely bonded to her does he feel, though strong, not known whether or not redeemable. Though I guess it depends how long you think it will take to make strong, undying, emotional ties with someone, no matter how well you hit it off. She is not really like my sibling since she was "artificially" created and I've known my sibling all my life, while she was known for a few days. So its really hard to judge how it could've of gone. Having it happen after a few months would be more obvious at the devastation Jeremie would feel at Aelita's loss, but not entirely sure a few days would have been a point of no return. Then again, I can't really judge, because I've never been attached to something "non-human" before, sentient or otherwise.

Not even a pet, at the very least? I think I see where your coming from then somewhat...

Still though, for those of us that have been attached to something, whether it be a pet or even, perhaps sillier, been moved by the characters we roleplay in a video game (I know several people who cried at FFX and FFVII in particular), it is indeed possible to become attached rather quickly to them, and care about them, even though you've only known them for a short length of time.

True, we don't know the specific time frame (again, my apologies to Lani on this), but Jeremie was able to talk to her on his own computer before the whole Sissi fiasco and had been doing so (that's how Ulrich catches him, I believe), as I specifically remember him telling her about the towers while in his room at school. I'll check my tapes again, to be sure, but I'm pretty positive on that.

At any rate, it's terribly clear that he liked her, if not love at first sight, then certainly by the time he'd involved Ulrich.

In any case, if this whole hypothetical sibling case isn't applicable to Aelita, since they're not the same (at present knowledge in "XANA Awakens") in terms of birth and length of knowing...does that mean that the whole "hypothetical scenario" is a bad comparison overall and should be, as they say in the courts, "removed from the record" on all counts?

Except that its not entirely Aelita's decision to do a bunch of the stuff they've done. It would be entirely Aelita's decision if she wants to go and off herself, but not hers to decide whether an action is harmful or beneficial to the mission or the potential safety of others. And a bad decision made in haste, is still a bad decision. If we want to cite examples of decisions made without voting for the entire gang:

* virtualizing herself to Lyoko in Unchartered Territory
* transferring her code sequence in Missing Link
* setting up the return to the past without permission in The Chips are Down
* creating a new monster on Lyoko in Marabounta
* another unvoted, unneccessary return trip as well as the helmet in Temptation
* sending William to the factory in A Bad Turn
* telling Sissi about the factory (again, Aelita may have been there, but a decision that doesn't involve solely her is not solely hers to make) and knocking out Jeremie to have herself virtualized by herself in Ultimatum
* attempting to access the panel in Sector 5 in the middle of a mission when not necessary
* abandoning the white tower to go deactivate the one XANA activated
* shutting down the computer when another sentient being was discovered inside

The last of which follows the same argument as Sissi's line-crosser and plenty of which are arguably more dangerous as a whole than simply shutting down the computer to not only them, but to other uninvolved individuals.

Half of those, I've already argued about. About a quarter of them I would point out the reaction given to said member of the group that clearly the group was not happy with what was done, just as they were not happy with Sissi. The other quarter are arguable in terms of who's logic is better, Jeremie's or Aelita's?

As for specifics, I would argue that the "Ultimatum" one is not a good point, since ultimately, the only reason they keep the super computer on is for Aelita's safety, so all XANA attacks do, directly lead to her solely, because they were co-dependant on each other's existence. The only reason they keep the computer secret is so that no one shuts it off, and during season 2, they didn't want it shut off because that was going to kill Aelita. So, albeit in a loopy way, any revealing of Lyoko is a risk to her life, and since it's her decision on whether or not she wants to risk it, shouldn't then, any revealing of Lyoko, that's done with her consent, be valid in all respects?

"Temptation" is a low blow, since Jeremie was not himself anymore, and, had he not been already mentally injured by the invention, he wouldn't have activated the RTTP. The helmet is negligible...supposedly, that wouldn't have posed any risk to the secret of Lyoko, since Jeremie wasn't blabbing about that either.

Marabounta speaks for itself, however Jeremie fixed the problem that he put everyone in. Sissi did not fix the problem that she put everyone in, in "XANA Awakens" when given the chance to...she made it worse, actually, as a matter of fact. That's a big difference.

Wouldn't that effectively mean "severing the pylon". Any attempt to keep it from the nuclear power plant would mean that they effectively need to isolate the pylon, which would include requiring severing all possible connections to the pylon to plant one way or another. Since they've stated that it was not possible to sever connection and isolate the pylon, I don't see how anything else could have been done differently that would of prevented the attack using conventional means.

They said they couldn't shut the pylon down, not sever it, I believe. That's where the key was, I'd imagine.

And even so, if we discount everything about "failure", "tact", and "all possible outcomes, both positive and negative"...we're still left with the fact that the group voted in "Seeing is Believing". They voted in "XANA Awakens", but to not tell, and that's the big problem to start with in Sissi's case.

It happened the same way in Claustraphobia and Zero Gravity Zone. They attempted to stop XANA by blocking electricity flow either to the cafeteria in the former or Jeremie hacking the network and re-routing flow in the latter. It couldn't be done. And if it couldn't be done in those episodes, even with Jeremie on the supercomputer, its not going to be done there.

Refer to my list of things done in Season 2 that didn't have full support by the group, several of which led to disaster.

Refer to my responses of why those things done either didn't need the full support, could have had full support (but wasn't shown), or aren't an example. or are exceptions of something needing a vote to start with.

Also, the key thing that Jeremie's actions did in "Claustrophobia" and "Zero Gravity Zone" particularly in the latter, was buy them time to deactivate the tower. Sissi's actions would not have bought them any time to deactivate the tower, and thus makes it a different case.

Jeremie had status on the progress of the plan. The pylon not changing itself is showing that the authorities aren't doing anything useful to help the matter, and Jeremie recieved a phone call prior to Yumi's attempt to alert the firefighters that the principal and the plant worker didn't believe her. And calling them incompetent when you don't know the steps they took or what measures they had in place is kinda pushing it. They probably have been working on it for hours, the city was in total blackout, you can't just say the plant, the firefighters, the government officials, anyone else you can potentially involve didn't try to do something about it to the best of their ability. Maybe the idea of trying to alert the authorities while avoiding telling them about Lyoko was as doomed to fail as Sissi's was?

Sissi's was doomed to fail for different reasons though...actually, as you said, she succeeded in getting people to the Factory, but the wrong people, and blabbed everything about Lyoko. Yumi failed in convincing anyone, but we don't know what she revealed past the firefighter's musing of "a super computer hidden in an abandoned factory". Yumi didn't lead anyone anywhere, and may not have revealed the exact coordinates to the Factory and the Computer, unlike Sissi.

In any case, we saw most of the steps taken by the authorities. They of course worked only on the pylon and not on the nuclear plant, as they didn't know the intended target, or even what was going on with the pylon. I said they were incompetent because they didn't want to listen to a report that could have helped them, and wouldn't even contact the plant after learning it was a target. Even if Yumi is only 14 (which isn't all that young in France), and the explanation was unusual...considering the situation with the pylon had them absolutely baffled, shouldn't they have thought to believe an explanation that was baffling in itself.

Common sense...or something like it, should suggest that if someone appears to know more about something then you do and I mean, really appears to know more about something, you should at least give them the benefit of the doubt, regardless of what they look like. It's inaction that causes a lot of problems in the beginning, really.

Most of the situations I've listed are acts in which a particular group member takes action without consent of the entire group. Some of which share parallels to Sissi's situation in some way shape or form.

I'll skip Yumi's case, since I agree, its kinda unrelated.

If you're going to give Jereme a plea of insanity for a lack of sleep in "The Girl of the Dreams", Sissi just got zapped by a large source of electricity, something of much greater magnitude than simple lack of sleep. Allowing Jeremie get by, when Sissi's situation was more stressful is not fair.

Agreed on Yumi's case then.

I'm willing to agree on Sissi's poor judgement in involving others being caused by the huge shock she took to the brain (although, Ulrich, Odd and Jeremie had all taken huge shocks as well and seemed to be thinking clearly just fine).

However, there's still the case of turning her back on her friends and also of agreeing on the super computer to be shut down.

Ulrich is allowed a chance of redemption, since he later gets to fight for their forgiveness. Sissi is not given such a chance, and Ulrich's motive and response was more selfish than Sissi's and more dangerous as well. Atleast Sissi did it for the gang's well-being and actually knew semi-accurately what was going on. Ulrich jumped the gun, before they even know that Yumi was actually moving.

Agreed on Ulrich's case being more selfish in "The Chips Are Down", than Sissi's, however it was not more dangerous in terms of posing an immediate threat to Aelita's well-being and that of the Super Computer's, which is what Sissi's was. Ulrich's mistake wouldn't have revealed the super computer, the Factory, or Aelita's origins. In terms of the fight against XANA, it might have made XANA a tad stronger, however, LTT's contents might make this arguable in terms of when qubits are added and whatnot.

Other than that, Ulrich's plan wouldn't have done much else. He'd have made an intriguing news story for maybe a week at most, and he'd have had to give the money up anyway not being of legal age to claim it (unless of course the Ishiyama's decided to keep it as he wanted, in which case, it still wouldn't lead back to the Factory and the Super Computer in any plausible way). Nobody would read headlines that said, "13 Year Old Wins Lottery", and think..."SECRET SUPER COMPUTER!" *insert Crocker impression here*

However, Sissi's was a direct threat to Aelita's safety and the Super Computer's...as well as the kids themselves, for their own involvement in it.

Aelita's plan was as bad as Sissi's, lack of trust or respect for her judgemnent be darned. The fact that Jeremie wouldn't agree with it anyways, doesn't make her justified in continuing with it, especially without fully thinking out the consequences. Something that a lot of the gang has been guilty of, at times. Don't see why Sissi is supposed to be different.

There's fully thinking out the consequences, and then there's stopping to at least consider them. Sissi did neither, whereas the group has at least stopped and considered the consequences. If you want to chalk that up to her being still slightly fried, alright, but still, she didn't consider the possibilities either.

And, I would argue that Aelita's plan was not a bad one. It would have worked. There was no prior indication that XANA was using Yumi as a way to get to Aelita (I've already explained this in above posts anyway), and Jeremie didn't want her to go because then she wouldn't be able to come back with her genetic code gone, not because he sensed something fishy in the plan itself or in XANA's activity.

Aelita is more important at the time than Yumi was. She would be required to access the panel, but atleast she tried to stop Jeremie. Yumi just allowed him to go on his way, without any sympathy. Being present for the fight is important, but sometimes crowed control is necessary on the real world, and risks sometimes need to be taken in order to ensure that what happens on Lyoko can go on with someone outside dying. But at the very least, the plan on the outside should yield benefit. Seeing is Believing was fruitless and did nothing that actually helped them outside of Lyoko, while hurting them inside.

And Sissi's did the exact same thing. Did nothing helpful on the outside and hurt them on the inside because they then had three civilians intent on shutting the computer down and involving the authorities which makes it worse.

And how is Aelita more important than Yumi at the time? Yes, she can access that panel, but everything done in season 2, was done so that the super computer could be shut off safely. Fighting XANA was part of the challenge but the goal was to free Aelita (since then shutting of the computer would take care of XANA). Plus, even without being able to be materialized, Aelita would still be able to access the panel. Jeremie just didn't want to be separated from her in terms of world planes (which he could solve anyway if he'd just get his tushie into Lyoko instead of sending everyone else). It wasn't an issue of "her safety from XANA" when she was virtualized...it was a "Jeremie wanted Aelita to stay on Earth" issue. And friends do not and should not view other friends in terms of importance over the other. Closeness yes, but importance in the web of life, no.

I've listed several cases where point 1 is taken. Turning your back on some one was also done several times. Though you have a point in that only Aelita has ever attempted to shut down the computer against the wishes of the group. But there were multiple cases where the gang has done one of the 2 points on a specific occassion and some of them were guilty of commiting both (though not in any single case) and a few of them were dangerous, yet they are allowed a chance at forgiveness or complete pardon, something Sissi was not given.

I've responded to all those cases, I believe, with why they either don't compare properly, or why they weren't as dangerous as Sissi's case in my posts above.

Rarely are analogies completely 100% accurate, but its still to prove a point that residual damage can occur to those nearby but not directly related. That was mostly the point.

Alright, but something still seems fishy about that (she doesn't attack anyone else other than Team Lyoko, Herb, Nicholas, Millie and Tamiya...everyone else she leaves alone for the most part), and definitely doesn't make it acceptable behavior. If that were the case, it could be applied to extreme cases (the ones circling in the news currently) about those nearby but not directly related getting hurt. Just because it happens, doesn't mean it's acceptable behavior. We can delineate the reasons for it, but Sissi made the choice ultimately to go through with the things she did. She could have just as easily chosen to let it go.

Well, they did technically found their way and had interest in finding their way (albeit with Sissi's help, but Jeremie and the gang didn't know that) as well as with Mr. and Mrs. Ishiyama in tow, in Exploration.

But there wasn't any danger to civilians in "Exploration"; just danger to the secret of Lyoko. And Kiwi led the way...on Sissi's orders, so again, they were led there in a sense.

Again, we're (well me, can't really speak for anyone else) not against the team turning her away from being a teammate. She has questionable goals and has shown herself unable to hold herself under pressure. That we don't disagree with. But they turned their back on her in the real world as well, which is partially what this debate is about. She did something out of concern and followed her conscience. The fact that it turned out badly is reason not to include her, but not to basically treat her like dirt in the real world. If a well-meaning and hard-working student tries her best at school but can't grasp the material, you give her a bad grade, but you don't stop teaching her because you feel she'll never learn.

And I can agree on her "following her conscience" and "acting out of concern" as being not so bad a reason, although, I still hold that because it was still done without some sort of group/Aelita consensus, that's the real reason why things blew up at first (as it was a breaking of trust).

And I know I've pointed out her two other big mistakes; turning her back on the group, and then asking that the super computer be shut down as well as not doing anything to stop the police from being involved (which was rather short-sighted since she would have been interogated too most likely).

And if I recall correctly, they only collectively got mad at her when they found out she'd tattled and then when she said the computer should be shut down. After the RTTP, only Odd and Ulrich really interact with her, and Ulrich only states that he'd rather hang out with his real friends. There were no insults (as in name-calling), pranks, and whatever other nonsense in "XANA Awakens" at the end. Taking into consideration that they know what she did in terms of breaking trust, that she was yelling at Ulrich for not showing up to something that he never agreed to be at in the first place, and was being kind of overbearing about something that was not too big a deal at the time, really...was his reaction that over the top, considering he could have been worse?

I'm not saying that he was nice about it in any sense (or that he couldn't have been nicer)...but considering Ulrich's temper and that Sissi was really laying it on kind of thick for such a minor trespass, without even asking for an explanation first, he could have done worse.

Everything done afterwards in later episodes can be argued as provoked in one way or another by Sissi.

So if it can be created in Lyoko, it can be materialized. Don't see how that can't be applied to real world objects given time and research.

Hmmm...still debateable. It's a plausible, but certainly not a confirmed, since we don't know what all it took for Jeremie to create the vehicles...and he never tried materializing them.

This is still assuming that the XANA problem is taken care of and research on materialization can be done without XANA deciding to roll a MegaTank or a couple Tarantulas out of the scanners and onto the researchers.

XANA clearly lost interest in helping humans a long time ago, so it'd take some sort of miracle to get him to be so compliant.

The initial money and time compared to a wind farm is not the same. A wind farm also takes up lots of land and also has a major drawback in that the power given back with relations to time, money, and space is a lot less than a dam or fossil fuels and energy storage of wind energy compared to usage is small that if the wind stops, the thing its powering most likely stops as well.

A materialization plant would be a whole lot more compact, more economical (it was made in 1994, the money used to create it has to be less than that in 2006), and the potential gains are much stronger than a wind farm. Think, replicating barrels and barrels of oil on a bar of uranium or tons and tons of food or raw supplies like metals, fresh water, rubber, plants, things other than just energy. It has a much greater potential for benefit with a wider variety of possibilities.

It's not the same, but still very similar. The materialization chambers would also take up space, no matter how compact one says they are as you'd still need a place to run wires and get enough electricity from, as they're not self-powering. Add into that, the trouble of finding enough Uranium cores to power them (and getting past the politicians that are advocating the "Not in my Backyard" policy), and you're in a huge rut.

The politics, I'd imagine, would be the proverbial noose for such a plan. Not only would everyone be riled by dangerous radioactive elements being involved, but the religious sects would be very quick to get on about how "technological creation" is an abomination, or whatever.

And there's still the space issue, as well as the initial money needed to pay for such a project. Where would it come from...and what else would be required to swing the deal (as in control of the machines, and such).

I'm basically following what my speech teacher told me. You can be the hardest worker in the world, but if the results don't work, I'm not going to give you an A or even a passing grade if you did it completely wrong. How about for another exmple, I ask you to build me a plane to fly across the Atlantic. Yum attempts to build me a jet airplane and fails and only gave me a shell and some spare parts. Sissi successfuly builds me the Wright Brothers' Flyer. Yumi's plan though better, failed, while Sissi who gave me an aircraft not likely to do the work, atleast gets me farther. Sissi's plan though not quite completely thought out, had a greater potential for benefit because it actually brought help, Yumi's didn't do anything.

The juries still out for me on Sissi's bringing of "help".

This example seems weird, since you say effort won't get a passing grade no matter what. Yumi doesn't give any effort in your example (a shell and spare parts) or at least not a comparative one. A fairer comparison would be Yumi builds one of those first airplanes that, while it looked like an airplane, couldn't get off the ground. Sissi builds the Wright Brothers Flyer, but then insists on flying it and crashes it straight into the Atlantic. I think that's a more accurate comparison. Sissi built a plane, but neither of them got across the Atlantic, just as Sissi brought help (and again I'm using that term loosely, out of skeptical-ness), but then crashed and burned in the execution of the rest of the task.

And it was only an analogy, didn't mean I actually expected to send Yumi to get me Stephen Hawking as a Physics tutor, just that the overall effectiveness and success of their particular plans, Sissi's was more favorable.

Point taken, then...although I'm still skeptical of Sissi's being more favorable, as unusable help that would have proved to be another thing to watch out for, isn't exactly what I'd call favorable over no help at all....

In what way are they different again, based on that line of reasoning? I doubt the principal had reason to believe Yumi that getting off the school was a matter of life and death. And had she not left the group, that would have been disastrous since the Satellite targeted Yumi specifically, and her standing in a crowd would have done a lot of damage. Same as Sissi trying to convince her father and Jim that the gang was involved in a dangerous activity and are in grave danger. And in both cases, the principal did not want to believe them at first (for whatever reason).

Yumi didn't know that it was targeting her. The note Jeremie sent her said it was targeting the school, so she was acting on that information. Faulting her for misinformation from Jeremie, isn't quite fair, as there was no way she could have known. Sissi had a much easier attack to figure out in terms of where it was going to hit next.

The difference is again, permission to give the secret out, which in this comparison, Yumi didn't even do.

And Sissi didn't say anything to them about her dad prior to them saying anything. The closest to it they got was that Sissi ratted them out saying that they constantly hung out with Odd and Yumi and that they may have known something, when the police asked.

And she probably wouldn't have bothered if they didn't take Sissi in for questioning as well, and misery loves company. But in either case, Jeremie and Aelita blabbed first, before Sissi asked anything, and had no reason to believe them right away.

I completely disagree that "misery loves company" is an excuse for ratting others out or getting others into trouble.

Sissi ratting them out proves she already suspected them of being involved in this some way, so she wasn't so much a bystander.

I will have to check the tapes for this too, since I could have sworn she asked about her father before Jeremie and Aelita said a word about Lyoko itself (and again, I'd think Aelita's presence is the overall factor here). I'd take your word for it on the chronology but I would like to see for myself...if only because it frustrates me when I can't remember the order of plot devices and dialogue in these episodes.

I guess thats where we ultimately differ. I can't blame a person for taking a valid POV and I believe results and consequences are what truly matters in the end, and motive and effort only as commendation. And this is not an ends justify the means kinda thing, because effects of the means are also parts of the consequences.

But then, wouldn't the effects of Sissi's getting help, those being the shutting down of the computer, Aelita's disconnection/deletion/death, the involvement of the police which would have surely led to trouble with the law for Jeremie at the least, have negative effects on her overall performance? Looking at all of the negative effects her actions had, I don't see how she can be given a "Pass" on overall performance.

If where we ultimately differ is that I feel it was wrong that she was willing to sacrifice a life/existence not her own without any shown remorse because she wasn't known to be "human" at the time, and you feel is isn't...then I guess that's another impass for us in terms of this debate...and a big one, at that.

I'm surprised how big this particular debate is growing, our first 2 responses have taken up 12.5 pages and our responses seem to be getting larger and larger. Can only imagine what can happen once we get to season 4, where supposedly a lot of meat is going to appear. It just feels weird that a debate would be this large based on one episode and discussing Sissi of all characters. I would of thought Aelita would of been the character to spawn the most debate.

Aelita's had severaly debates though already ("The Key" being a really big one as well, I think).

12.5 pages? That's in MS Word or another type program right? Lol...That's rather impressive really. ^.^

[animenologist offline]

*sing-song* This is the debate that never ends, it just goes on and on my friend, some people started thinking, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue thinking it forever just because...

Stealing is wrong. There's no excuse for that. Blackmail is wrong, and there's no excuse for that either.

It doesn't matter if she's desperate, and it doesn't matter how infatuated she is with him, stealing his diary and then threatening to use his own personal thoughts against him was horrible!

You don't see Ulrich stooping to stealing William's diary and then threatening him to break off his friendship with Yumi (not only because he'd understand how wrong that is...but Yumi would probably kill him if she found out).

That was a nasty trick she pulled. The way I see it, if we're going to let Sissi slide with behavior like theivery and blackmail then we have to excuse the group when they do it to her (or for whatever other cause). Heck, even Odd realized that blackmail was wrong in "Straight to Heart".

And why should Yumi feel sorry for someone who's exploiting her best friend in one of the worst ways possible? What kind of friend would that make her, in return? She shouldn't have to have empathy for her either, because what Sissi did was low. We all know Yumi, at the time, probably would have liked to know what Ulrich thought of her, or how he felt about her...she had the opportunity to read his diary too, but she didn't out of respect for her friend's privacy.

If Sissi had wanted to prove her character, she should have returned the diary to Ulrich and apologized of her own accord (like Odd did to Jim in "Straight to Heart"). If Ulrich had still gotten overly mad with her then, okay, that'd be decently jerk-y of him, but because she didn't...is it fair to get so angry at the victim and not at all with the thief?

Also, I don't recall Ulrich mocking her at the end. All he says is, "Oh hello, Sissi. Were you waiting for me?"

That's all. No mockery, no nothing. Sissi sees that he has his diary back and takes off, because she had nothing to blackmail him with.

I'm not saying this because I don't like Sissi or something like that. True, Sissi is not my favorite character, but I'm just trying to point out that some of the things she does are wrong, regardless of what spirit they're in...and that getting mad at Team Lyoko for reacting angrily to her own wrong-doings, is in itself, unfair to their characters as well.

I'm also defending my own favorite character, Ulrich, in this, since he's been getting more harping on from "XANA Awakens" than anyone else, and he honestly doesn't deserve it...or at least not all of it, in looking at the full picture.

I thought 2 wrongs don't make a right? "One wrong doesn't make a right, two wrongs makes me feel better." So their response to dealing with stealing and blackmailing of Ulrich's property, is the stealing and blackmailing of Sissi's property, atleast going by what you've stated earlier. Heck, she already had Sissi's diary in hand, there was no real need to read it, unless she's digging for backup material come later days or feels one bad turn deserves another. Not exactly quite the moral upstandedness we expect from the gang, especially Yumi who is supposed to be the most calm and most mature, unless they only do it for people they actually like. And judging by Ulrich and Odd's response when they found out, they obviously approved of the measure.

And though she did do what was a really incredibly horrible thing, by her diary and her reactions on the bus, she did feel guilt. And you'd be hard pressed to find any teenager at any time and place who hasn't done something bad that they rather not talk about. Still I'm not blaming the gang for anything, and I side with them on the matter at who is entirely at fault here, but according to your reasoning prior to, the gang weren''t exactly perfect little angels, were they?

I've already posted my thoughts about "Big Bug". The prank was unnecessary, but then again, so was Sissi's behavior towards Millie and Tamiya...who have done absolutely nothing to her at all.

Well, they were crushing on Ulrich in the beginning, so its not enitrely out of the blue. Helga was not one to enjoy people fussing over Arnold or people Arnold fussed over go without some of charm, like Lila or Ruth. Don't see why Sissi would be different in clearing the competition, especially since Milly did go to the dance with Ulrich and I wouldn't be surprised if Sissi felt displeased if that news report about how badly she was dumped by Ulrich got out. Not that it was called for, but it wasn't spontaneous.

Okay...so, wait, now you're saying that it's good when someone is left behind to fight the real world attacks or protect people in the real world...tell me again, then, why Yumi is being faulted for "Seeing is Believing" not only because it "failed" but because her leaving lost them an extra fighter.

It seems to me that you want to apply slightly similar scenarios to Sissi in the most positive way, yet point out every negative aspect when the Lyoko crew (particularly Yumi or Ulrich) uses a comparable tactic, and with better thought for Lyoko's safety on top of that.

Sissi's tactics failed, yet they're still helpful? This seems to be a complete opposite of what you've been arguing beforehand

Sometimes they voluntarily leave someone behind to help the real-world as crowd control (thngs like Cold War or Claustrophobia don't count), and there are benefits and their plans vary in validity like Seeing is Believing or Sissi's botched plan in XANA's Awaken. The thing is that Seeing is Believing was an idea that failed and had reason to fail, even prior to its concoction and following, similar to what you believe Sissi's plan in XANA's Awaken. Yet Sissi's gets jumped on because her plan was supposedly bad to try out, but Yumi gets pardon for her bad plan.

There were consequences to Yumi's plan, one is that it failed, two is that it denied them a third fighter, but we let her off, while Sissi gets nothing. And thats what I'm trying to get at, Sissi should not be punished as intensely for her actions if Yumi gets nothing.

The extra time is valuable...but only when there's someone along with Aelita to deactivate the tower. Taking the four kids and running away wouldn't have helped Aelita deactivate a tower, since no one would be left to be virtualized and escort her to the tower. And there'd be no one around to shut the super computer off...because they all would have run away. Extra time is useless when there's no one to buy extra time for, which would be the case here.

Plus, how would they get them out of the room with XANA shooting electricity through it (since it's a completely metallic room). Even if Jim went in first, as soon as the others followed, they'd get zapped too. The Lightning monster wasn't targeting anyone specifically...it was, like I said, just shooting electricity throughout the room (thus why Jeremie and then Jim got nailed).

So again, there's nothing plausibly helpful, either offensively or defensively, that Jim, the Principal, and Nurse Dorothy could have done to help.

He who lives and runs away, lives to fight another day. Running away with the kids would atleast allowed them a greater chance at safety and survival would they have been in a dire predicament. At that point, they could of rethought a strategy, get a handle of the situation, and since the situation wasn't as time intensive as say Cold War or Seeing is Believing or Zero Gravity Zone, they could of done with a little time for a breather. And better they have ran away with Jeremie and co. alive, then say left them there to fry and they lose anyways, hypothetically speaking of course.

And they would of gotten out the same way Principal Delmas, Nurse Dorothy, and Sissi weren't zapped when Jim was zapped, the same way the others managed to avoid multiple attempts of electricution while inside the lab, not being in the path of the electricity. And even than, people have continued to persevere after electricution. Ulrich, Jim, Jeremie, several characters have been electricuted yet continue on in the middle of an attack. Jim must have been knocked out three times in the recent episode False Lead, two of which were electricutions, yet he continued to fight and helped Jeremie and Ulrich survive.

Fair enough...but they didn't really volunteer. Winking

If it's a case of her panicking and going to the first people she could think of for help, okay, I'll give her that, but she still didn't have to turn her back on her friends afterwards, nor initially blab so much about Lyoko without any real prompting.

Also, in point of case...the most capable one tends to volunteer for the real world defense. Ulrich and Yumi are better real world fighters than Odd, and they know that. The few times that Odd stayed behind in the real world were mostly because he'd gotten stuck in the real world for reasons completely different from the impending attack.

I would of thought the proper punishment would be just not letting Sissi into the group. Anything else would just be being spiteful.

Tends to, but its not that uncommon to choose someone thats not normally obvious when a choice is given. Frontier, they virtualized Ulrich, even though Odd tends to be the one with the better record for solo missions with Aelita. Mr. Puck, they left Odd to fight, even though both Yumi and Ulrich were there with him. XANA's Kiss, again, Odd stays to fight, Yumi and Ulrich both there with him. Vertigo, Ulrich stays behind, but both Odd and Yumi are faster runners than Ulrich in the real world (kinda ironic isn't it) and would have stood a better chance of not being caught by the wolves. Evidence includes them taking off at the same time, with Ulrich the furthest behind, Odd and Yumi up ahead, with Odd able to overtake Yumi. In the Trap, Yumi beat Ulrich in a foot race to the elevator. Yumi also set a 100 yard dash record in Tip-Top Shape. In Contact, Ulrich was chosen to go with Aelita alone to investigate, again, Odd normally has that honor.

I don't think it was a valid point of view though...as I said earlier, even if they didn't know Aelita was originally human, she was still a thinking and feeling being. Whether or not Sissi is to be blamed for being willing to sacrifice someone else's existence (without even asking said being first, which would have been manageable) depends on one's own ethics then...in which case, I'm assuming we've reached an impass.

Whether or not Aelita is a sentient being or not, she is still non-human according to their understanding at the time in question, and an ethical debate can be held for the position that having her be lost for the safety and well-being of the general public. The fact that there is logical reason to believe that her side is right over the other, is what I consider valid, even though in the end I disagree with it. I can't blame a person for being Demorcat or Republican, can't blame a person for being Protestant or Catholic, can't blame a person for being a political affiliation other than conservative and liberal, certainly can't blame Sissi for feeling it be better to shut of the supercomputer or not.

Actually...sending William to the Factory was a necessity, seeing as how Odd was about to get nailed by another Krabe (which likely would have gone after Jeremie then). It's just as easy to assume that Ulrich called Jeremie back, asked about Odd's predicament, and then asked if involving William further was too risky. Since we don't know fully what happened (thanks to an advantageous time lapse, for both sides), it's really hard to use "A Bad Turn" as an example one way or the other.

When William arrived, Odd was running, but in not any tremendous danger. William just drove in, stopped his go-kart while Odd jumped in, and sped off. In the end it helped, but the help could of easily been sent over to Yumi's house which was doing much worse compared to Odd's situation. But we'll never really know what really happened prior to Ulrich and William's separation, will we so I guess it can't be judged.

And again we're back to faulting Yumi for better judgement of help, because she ultimately failed too. This is getting a tad flip-floppy to me...or perhaps I'm not understanding your posts fully.

Yumi stays behind, picks the correct people to get help from (and who could have stopped XANA's plan or delayed it at least), and due to those individual's own sense of "reality", has her plan fail (and herself faulted).

Sissi leads three civilians into a fight against a monster they're not going to be able to do anything against, either offensively or defensively (see my posts above), endangering three more lives in the process and also fails (yet shouldn't be faulted for poor planning at the very least)?

In any case, you said it yourself, "All times she could of ditched them, she had no reason to, because she was actively trying to get them there and get them to act,". She got them to act, but in a way that was completely hurtful to the group's cause. That's worse, I'd say, than getting no action, but at least keeping the group's cause relatively safe.

And, though I know you've said your opinion of it already, she still then turned her back on them and went with her father's judgements (and she always goes against those to begin with) as opposed to believing in her friends.

Only faulting Yumi's plan because in terms of sounding the alarm to help the group (not counting the whole betrayal thing), Sissi gets jumped on, while Yumi doesn't. Had Sissi not been faulted for her plan, I wouldn't pay much heed to Yumi's, but I still felt that the reaction the gang gave to both of them were out of proportion with each other. I don't mind that Yumi got nothing, it was well-intended, but doomed to failure, but Sissi's gets told of being stupid because she tried to get help, with good intentions, and gets blamed with short-sightedness.

I'm not saying the plan wasn't bad on Sissi's part (not saying it is either, I'm kinda neutral on that point), but the backlash was not consistent and overreactive. And again, atleast Sissi brought help, which at the very least amounts to 4 more like-bodied individuals with Ulrich, Yumi, and Odd, and I doubt you would ever call Jeremie and the gang stupid or short-sighted for leaving behind one of their own to face up to a real world threat they have no chance of dealing with, so why overly fault Sissi for doing something similar.

Jeremie wasn't listening to logic here either though...he didn't want her to go through with her plan because he didn't want her to lose her ability to be materialized, not because he sensed something deeper in XANA's attack. By all means, Aelita's plan should have worked and they all had figured that XANA's attack had been aimed at Yumi and making her a target for complete elimination and not at Aelita for a change. Jeremie was being just as illogical, and, if you want to be blunt about it "selfish".

I'm guessing that at least one of the two episodes, in your opinion, that Aelita's emotional arguement was justified was "Cold War", in which I agree. However, I disagree that the others weren't called for either (with the possible exception of Deja Vu, which again, was because of XANA's messing with her mind, and not her own true actions). I have no idea what she did in "Unchartered Territory" that wasn't called for. Considering the abuse she had been getting (...and look who was doing the abusing), I don't think it's unreasonable that she fled to Lyoko (her only true home that she knew of) to find some inner peace. How is that different from Ulrich sulking in his room (or the forest) or Jeremie diving into his various computer programs and such whenever he's faced with a problem.

"Missing Link", I've already expressed why that was justified as well, and if we're going to get mad at her for anything she does in "Ultimatum", then Jeremie should be faulted as well for being "as stubborn as a fool", and for gambling with his friend's lives and welfare. The only thing slightly back-handed was getting Sissi to knock him out, since she should have done that herself...but she'd probably get yelled at for that too, and plus, it's not in her to hit someone.

"Vertigo" was in no way her fault at all. Jeremie's impulsiveness got them into that mess, so anything Aelita did afterwards (which I'm actually not sure of what "impulsiveness" she's being accused of in this case), is ultimately because Jeremie messed up.

"Deja Vu" I already discussed briefly, and "Contact" I don't quite remember very well (other than Sissi was involved again through Franz Hopper's devices), so I'll leave that at a "maybe", until I can check my tapes on it.

"The Key" is another debate entirely...because it's just going to loop back into that whole "suicide/martyrdom for the better good" thing, so I'm really not going to get into that. However...in "The Key", wasn't it also illogical of Jeremie to dive into Sector 5 so quickly afterwards? Perhaps watching and waiting to see if XANA would react first to the threat of being shut off again, before acting would have been a better planned course.

As a note to the Jeremie fans though...don't kill me. X) I love the little Einstein, but he does have a stubborn and protective streak in him (it's a virtue and a fault), but it makes him extra loveable. Happy It's just that, in this debate, I don't feel it's fair to get mad at Aelita for being stubborn and perhaps illogical, if she was also having to deal with an equally stubborn and perhaps illogical partner. After all...when in Rome... Winking

So to fight someone whose stubborn, you be stubborn as well. Never did like fight fire with fire. So basically, because Jeremie is being stubborn and wrong, it would be best for Aelita to also be stubborn and wrong, to counter him. Whatever happened to 2 wrongs don't make a right? Aelita had much better success convincing Jeremie during Season 1 when she was being calm, patient, and logical. Half the time in Season 2, she is anything but calm, patient, or logical. If Jeremie is being selfish, Aelita is being a loose cannon.

And in less than the 10 minutes it took Aelita to complete her bad idea, Jeremie figures out a better one that would keep all parties happy. So no matter how stubborn Jeremie is and how well-intentioned and supposedly good Aelita's idea was supposed to be, a little patient thinking from the "selfish" Jeremie was more reasonable than the listening to Aelita's "reason".

Several places Aelita could of fled to that was safer than Lyoko in Uncharted Territory: her room, the forest, the Hermitage. Several actions that would of been more reasonable or atleast caused less worry, wait for one her friends to talk about it, ignore Sissi because she's being jerk, mope in silence within the safety of the 3 areas I listed previously. And Sissi could be reciprocating the feelings the gang was given to her, after all, what is Aelita to her but a new kid that has done in a few days if not the first day, what she has been trying to do for a year or so. None of the others particularly like it when someone moping causes troubles for the others, don't see how it should be different with Aelita. Though I guess I can give her a by on this one. Everyone should be allowed one chance to screw-up.

See first 2 paragraphs of the response to this quote for why Aelita's idea was unreasonable.

So she wasn't wrong to knock out Jeremie, go into Lyoko with no support other than Sissi, and failing to trust the current plan they had in place (the EMP) which actually worked to an extent? That she didn't hit him herself, doesn't do anything for the fact that she planned it. And if we can fault Jeremie for not going along with Aelita's plan in Missing Link due to a lack of trust, we can certainly fault Aelita for not going along with Jeremie's current plan due to a lack of trust.

Vertigo, I see as a repeat of Cold War, which I found agreeable. Difference between this and Ultimatum is that there already was a plan in place that was agreed upon (by a majority even), while Vertigo, they had no other course of action.

Deja Vu, if temporary bouts of sanity are allowed, Sissi was panicking and just experienced potentially serious injury.

Contact, she left Ulrich in the middle of battle (and took his vehicle too) against Jeremie's wishes, who (if we're going to say that Aelita has better judgement on matters concerning Lyoko having lived there) would have better idea of things going on, because he has a bird's eye-view of the region and thus knows where/if monsters pop up and has contact with Odd/Yumi, and would better understand the current situation over her.

The Key had Franz Hopper known to be inside the computer. So even if it was also a suicide, it runs parallel to Sissi thinking the supercomputer is too dangerous and should be shut down, even if there was a virtual being inside. And again, it was impulsive and uncalled for. And if you're going to say that a group opinion is crucial, none of them had any major doubts about the mission to the point of speaking against it.

And if being stubborn is what is needed to get through to Jeremie, what happened in Season 1? And being stubborn is arguably wrong behavior when trying to argue with one who is stubborn and 2 wrongs don't make a right, now, does it?

To be fair though, Jeremie, for a twelve year old boy, wasn't following all that much reason either, and in the same exact episodes, with obvious evidence and reasons.

And like I said, I'm not mad at him for trying to protect someone he loves. Goodness knows, I think that's very romantic, chivalrous, and cute of him to go the lengths he does for Aelita. However, one has to admit, he can be "stubborn as a fool" at times, and Aelita's got quite a bit of right to get frustrated with him when he does.

I would think Jeremie would have the right to be a little frustrated too if the person he tries to protect is sometimes reckless with their own well-being and when she acts and her actions are "so stubborn, that is a silly thing to do."

You're, referring though, to succeeding in Lyoko, which indeed they did. However, had they not warned anyone and then failed in Lyoko (which was what Yumi was worried about) and either lost Aelita or couldn't deactivate the tower in the amount of time before the pylon surged, what would be their chances of stopping the real world attack. None. However, there was a chance that, even if they failed in Lyoko, if the correct authorities were warned and the right action taken to stop and electrical attack on the plant (not involving the pylon, but perhaps the connections to the plant itself), then the failure in Lyoko at least wouldn't be even more so over-shadowed by the failure in the real world. That was Yumi's thinking, I'm sure of it. She was taking the precaution of, "what could be done" if the group failed in Lyoko.

And again, I disagree that the issue was forced...there's no such thing as a "forced vote", since a vote is done voluntarily. Otherwise, it's just a forced admission, and that was absolutely not the case here.

Had the issue not been put to a vote, neither side would have stepped down, nothing gets done, thus, the vote had to be placed on the table or else they both get screwed over. That is forcing the issue and forcing the vote. And there are plenty of ways where votes are not mandatory. Countries where mandatory voting is required else the person gets fined. What happens is you get a bunch of people who don't really care are forced to decide upon the issue, especially when not allowed a neutral vote. You can't say that that is done voluntarily.

There was no evidence to say she did know either though. An electricity based direct attack is different...and more easily understood in computer terms. To her, it could easily be viewed as the equivalent of lightning causing a power surge and frying a computer, although in this case, we'd have humans instead of a computer. Nuclear activity would not be the same case, as the computer runs on a radioactive elemental battery, and to Aelita, that could signify to her that nuclear chemicals were good. She wouldn't know that humans can't exactly run on radioactive chemicals like a super computer can.

Ultimatum is an extenuating circumstance, since by then she had a much wider knowledge of how the Earth worked, and because of her prevailing martyr complex.

And even if she had known what a nuclear attack would do, as you said, she would have asked that the super computer be shut down, "if given the chance"...but Jeremie didn't want to give her that chance. Foregoing all values of protectiveness and love in this scenario, isn't that a tad back-handed of him that he didn't make any move to involve her in what was going on in the real world? He knew precisely what she'd say, and that's why he didn't make any mention of it...so, she wasn't fairly "given a chance" until Yumi said something.

That's stretching it incredibly. If Aelita didn't understand the basics of humanity that couldn't in some way be related to computers, she would think that all humans run on some electricity, don't need sleep, and use 2 senses and believe that all humans have expansive capacity to learn and retain raw data. And they have been at this for a while, in that time, she can read up on the basics of human anatomy if she didn't know that human's can't stand intense radiation or intense anything for that matter. And on top of that, XANA is going to blow up the nuclear powerplant, doubt Aelita will think, "hmm, XANA wants to cause nuclear meltdown and spread radiation throughout the region, but since I don't know enough about human anatomy, I can't decide if thats a good thing or not and thus I need someone to tell me people are going to die." She may not know humans that well yet, but I doubt she would be that dense.

It would be just as if not more plausible, that she is leaving it into the hands of her friends to decide, unless she feel things are dire when she needs to step up. The gang was at a standstill and neither side budging. So she steps up to end this, so that a proper course of action can be taken underway. Not that Jeremie intentionally forgoes Aelita, otherwise, he wouldn't have so enthusiastically allowed Aelita to vote when she offered and probably might have instead tried to use whatever authority he had to push the issue in his favor.

Fair enough. I was hypothetically asking for "your" feelings on it, but I admit that was a tad out of bounds for me to pick at personally, and I'd like to express my apologies there.

However, considering this is the feelings of the group we're discussing, in particular Jeremie's strong feelings for Aelita, and what their reactions would have been, remorse in general, isn't all that off-topic.

We don't know Sissi's reaction for sure (although, if she was going to ask for the super computer to be shut down, and then feel badly afterwards, that's still short-sighted of her), but we know what the group's was, particularly Jeremie's, and that's where the big point is.

They would have been hurt badly, and because the breaking of trust in itself, was a big wound, it's really not unreasonable that they got angry with Sissi, regardless of whether she remembered or not, because they still do, and therefore won't be apt to trust her again right away.

Like I said a long while back, the only way this will ever be truly settled is if Sissi gets another chance at deciding (in her own opinion and free will) what to do with the super computer (turn on or turn off) while another life still depends on it's activation, although considering Aelita's free of it now...I'm not sure how that'd work...Unless one of the Team finds themselves trapped for a time again in Lyoko (if it's Yumi again...that'd make for a decently fair test...though my pity to Yumi then).

Saying that its shortsighted for Sissi to feel badly about shutting off the computer afterwards when she felt otherwise when it first came up is saying that as humans, we are not allowed to feel regret. As humans, our opinions of our actions do change once we realize the consequences of our choices in hindsight. To say that it would be wrong of Sissi to feel that way would be faulting humanity and that would include the gang itself.

And I would say your test would be whether or not they can trust Sissi as a Lyoko warrior, not necessarily trust her in the real world. What her course of action would be in that situation would tell them if her ideals and goals would be harmonious with theirs, but it shouldn't be that strict to trust her on the outside.

In any case, if this whole hypothetical sibling case isn't applicable to Aelita, since they're not the same (at present knowledge in "XANA Awakens") in terms of birth and length of knowing...does that mean that the whole "hypothetical scenario" is a bad comparison overall and should be, as they say in the courts, "removed from the record" on all counts?

The hypothetical was a comparison of Sissi to my friend. Going beyond that, and you are asking from my hypothetical a point it was not meant to argue. That's the tricky thing about analogies and hypotheticals. they only provide a referential state of mind, but they can't be made the entire argument, because any complex thinking outside the box will break any analogy. The point I was driving at with my hypothetical is that it would be a misjudgement of character of my friend if I held a grudge against him just for taking a valid course of action, based on good intentions, even if there are horrible downsides to it. It would be wrong to blame them for following their own conscience, which I'm trying to reference to Sissi.

Half of those, I've already argued about. About a quarter of them I would point out the reaction given to said member of the group that clearly the group was not happy with what was done, just as they were not happy with Sissi. The other quarter are arguable in terms of who's logic is better, Jeremie's or Aelita's?

As for specifics, I would argue that the "Ultimatum" one is not a good point, since ultimately, the only reason they keep the super computer on is for Aelita's safety, so all XANA attacks do, directly lead to her solely, because they were co-dependant on each other's existence. The only reason they keep the computer secret is so that no one shuts it off, and during season 2, they didn't want it shut off because that was going to kill Aelita. So, albeit in a loopy way, any revealing of Lyoko is a risk to her life, and since it's her decision on whether or not she wants to risk it, shouldn't then, any revealing of Lyoko, that's done with her consent, be valid in all respects?

"Temptation" is a low blow, since Jeremie was not himself anymore, and, had he not been already mentally injured by the invention, he wouldn't have activated the RTTP. The helmet is negligible...supposedly, that wouldn't have posed any risk to the secret of Lyoko, since Jeremie wasn't blabbing about that either.

Marabounta speaks for itself, however Jeremie fixed the problem that he put everyone in. Sissi did not fix the problem that she put everyone in, in "XANA Awakens" when given the chance to...she made it worse, actually, as a matter of fact. That's a big difference.

Wouldn't that make every decision on every Lyoko mission invalid since she is connected to the computer, thus only her decision matters and kinda diminishes the group vote in Seeing is Believing? Still, the supercomputer can remain on, even without Aelita alive (theoretically), so their lives are not completely interconnected with one another. At the same time, just because she is linked to the computer, does not give her free reign on how the group operates in their missions. So again, I still see this as acting without group consent. And there is still the matter of knocking Jeremie out, which involved Jeremie, not solely her, which again, she did without group consent.

It still caused danger to their situation, and I guess this brings up the question of priorities, as I can say it is just as important that they keep XANA's power in check and manageable as it is to keep the supercomputer safe, concerning the mission of getting Aelita out safely with no casualties. The former affects a wider area of people and as such requires just as much care. And since the helmet lead to one of those consequences without the consent of the group, it definately should be questioned, especially in comparison to Sissi's actions.

They said they couldn't shut the pylon down, not sever it, I believe. That's where the key was, I'd imagine.

And even so, if we discount everything about "failure", "tact", and "all possible outcomes, both positive and negative"...we're still left with the fact that the group voted in "Seeing is Believing". They voted in "XANA Awakens", but to not tell, and that's the big problem to start with in Sissi's case.

The exact fireman's words were, "I can't manage to cut the power. I've tried everything. I've never seen such a weird thing." Multiple ways to try to cut power to the pylon, and I would take the word of the fireman that he tried everything that could be done on his end.

Refer to my responses of why those things done either didn't need the full support, could have had full support (but wasn't shown), or aren't an example. or are exceptions of something needing a vote to start with.

Also, the key thing that Jeremie's actions did in "Claustrophobia" and "Zero Gravity Zone" particularly in the latter, was buy them time to deactivate the tower. Sissi's actions would not have bought them any time to deactivate the tower, and thus makes it a different case.

It had the potential to keep anyone who was being zapped alive while the tower was being taken care of. Not like Jeremie's actions made taking out the tower go any faster, just allowed to continue to work without lives being lost. Sissi's idea had the potential, even if it was to drag out their fried bodies.

Sissi's was doomed to fail for different reasons though...actually, as you said, she succeeded in getting people to the Factory, but the wrong people, and blabbed everything about Lyoko. Yumi failed in convincing anyone, but we don't know what she revealed past the firefighter's musing of "a super computer hidden in an abandoned factory". Yumi didn't lead anyone anywhere, and may not have revealed the exact coordinates to the Factory and the Computer, unlike Sissi.

In any case, we saw most of the steps taken by the authorities. They of course worked only on the pylon and not on the nuclear plant, as they didn't know the intended target, or even what was going on with the pylon. I said they were incompetent because they didn't want to listen to a report that could have helped them, and wouldn't even contact the plant after learning it was a target. Even if Yumi is only 14 (which isn't all that young in France), and the explanation was unusual...considering the situation with the pylon had them absolutely baffled, shouldn't they have thought to believe an explanation that was baffling in itself.

Common sense...or something like it, should suggest that if someone appears to know more about something then you do and I mean, really appears to know more about something, you should at least give them the benefit of the doubt, regardless of what they look like. It's inaction that causes a lot of problems in the beginning, really.

Not like the gang ever decides who are the right people to choose to fight a real world attack if they feel it necessary. Could of just been as easy as they chose the wrong person to go get help and should of sent someone else if they wanted that plan to succeed. And even if they weren't the ideal people like a plant worker in Seeing is Believing, they came and I've already stated my due about their potential to help, even during that particular attack.

And you're not sure what was done. Remember, a plant worker was at the school and he had cellphone contact with the plant. They knew about the blackout and they knew something horribly wrong is going on. And authorities were already on site at the pylon, so obviously the authorities were alerted to current faults with the electrical grid. So you can't really judge what they can do and if they tried all that they could, since other than a contact from the plantworker at the school, you don't know what was being done at the plant.

If someone showed you crop circles in a cornfield and appeared to know what they were doing and said it was UFOs, would you believe it? Given a non-supernatural phenomenon, we usually tend to gravitate towards non-supernatural answers. And I would think they would more likely to contact the power plant if they not already have and listen to their word over Yumi's. Not really that common, especially the situation wasn't so outlandish that there had to be an abnormal effect, unlike Attack of the Zombies.

Agreed on Yumi's case then.

I'm willing to agree on Sissi's poor judgement in involving others being caused by the huge shock she took to the brain (although, Ulrich, Odd and Jeremie had all taken huge shocks as well and seemed to be thinking clearly just fine).

However, there's still the case of turning her back on her friends and also of agreeing on the super computer to be shut down.

Which again, should of been punished with not letting them be a Lyoko warrior, nothing else.

Agreed on Ulrich's case being more selfish in "The Chips Are Down", than Sissi's, however it was not more dangerous in terms of posing an immediate threat to Aelita's well-being and that of the Super Computer's, which is what Sissi's was. Ulrich's mistake wouldn't have revealed the super computer, the Factory, or Aelita's origins. In terms of the fight against XANA, it might have made XANA a tad stronger, however, LTT's contents might make this arguable in terms of when qubits are added and whatnot.

Other than that, Ulrich's plan wouldn't have done much else. He'd have made an intriguing news story for maybe a week at most, and he'd have had to give the money up anyway not being of legal age to claim it (unless of course the Ishiyama's decided to keep it as he wanted, in which case, it still wouldn't lead back to the Factory and the Super Computer in any plausible way). Nobody would read headlines that said, "13 Year Old Wins Lottery", and think..."SECRET SUPER COMPUTER!" *insert Crocker impression here*

However, Sissi's was a direct threat to Aelita's safety and the Super Computer's...as well as the kids themselves, for their own involvement in it.

But it was more dangerous to the general well-being of the public. Yes, tattling on the supercomputer would have meant shut down and death of Aelita, but comparing that to letting a weapon of mass destruction grow more powerful and you can't say that blabbing is more dangerous. More detrimental to the mission, yes definately, but thats not what I was getting at. The fact is that Ulrich's actions had the potential to harm more people than Sissi telling them to shut down the supercomputer, which again, could of meant anything as well as a load of potential outcomes that may still have kept Aelita alive.

There's fully thinking out the consequences, and then there's stopping to at least consider them. Sissi did neither, whereas the group has at least stopped and considered the consequences. If you want to chalk that up to her being still slightly fried, alright, but still, she didn't consider the possibilities either.

And, I would argue that Aelita's plan was not a bad one. It would have worked. There was no prior indication that XANA was using Yumi as a way to get to Aelita (I've already explained this in above posts anyway), and Jeremie didn't want her to go because then she wouldn't be able to come back with her genetic code gone, not because he sensed something fishy in the plan itself or in XANA's activity.

Aelita's plan didn't consider any consequences either before Aelita went and enacted it. And killing weeds with napalm would be a plan that would of worked as well. But that doesn't mean it was a good idea since it leads to horrible side-effects (like burning away my yard as well). Same here, the plan technically would of gotten Yumi out of Lyoko, but it would have also allowed XANA victory. And everyone thought it incredibly odd that Yumi was captured and drained by the Scyphozoa, so it would be obvious that things are not as they seem and they should thought out a bit more, which Aelita didn't

And Sissi's did the exact same thing. Did nothing helpful on the outside and hurt them on the inside because they then had three civilians intent on shutting the computer down and involving the authorities which makes it worse.

And how is Aelita more important than Yumi at the time? Yes, she can access that panel, but everything done in season 2, was done so that the super computer could be shut off safely. Fighting XANA was part of the challenge but the goal was to free Aelita (since then shutting of the computer would take care of XANA). Plus, even without being able to be materialized, Aelita would still be able to access the panel. Jeremie just didn't want to be separated from her in terms of world planes (which he could solve anyway if he'd just get his tushie into Lyoko instead of sending everyone else). It wasn't an issue of "her safety from XANA" when she was virtualized...it was a "Jeremie wanted Aelita to stay on Earth" issue. And friends do not and should not view other friends in terms of importance over the other. Closeness yes, but importance in the web of life, no.

And again, Sissi gets piled on while Yumi doesn't. The point I'm trying to make when comparing the two situations was that just because the plan failed, Sissi shouldn't have been treated as harshly as she should of been since Yumi's plan failed just as badly if not more so (granted for different reason), but you can't blame Yumi for acting out of good intentions, why is it right to dog pile on Sissi?

What is your second paragraph talking about? I was talking about the situation in Franz Hopper in which you've stated that since Yumi was important since she needed to be on Lyoko to help the fight which you got from me, than she would have been too busy going to Lyoko to show Jeremie some sympathy to the harsh words "Franz Hopper" was giving him and that Yumi has shown no evidence that she has turned on Jeremie. But Aelita for that particular mission is more important than Yumi, since the point of going on the mission was to get data from the panel and fix Yumi. Reason being is that if Aelita isn't there, the mission fails immediately. If Yumi isn't there, the mission is weakened greatly but not automatically a lost cause. But despite Aelita being more important, atleast she tried to stop Jeremie from leaving in anger and showed him some outward sympathy while Yumi like the other boys turned their backs on Jeremie. And the whole point of my reference Franz Hopper was to show that the other members of the gang are just as capable of turning their back on each other for potentially petty reasons and that Yumi was just as guilty of it as Odd and Ulrich which you showed disagreement to, yet they get forgiveness and a chance to apologize. Similar parallel can be drawn to Sissi who also turned her back on the gang, but never gets a chance to apologize and pays for it, which is not fair to her. I don't even know where exactly where you were heading with that paragraph, because my quote meant something entirely different.

I've responded to all those cases, I believe, with why they either don't compare properly, or why they weren't as dangerous as Sissi's case in my posts above.

Again, I judge the danger of their actions by the potential consequences. Shutting down the computer kills Aelita, several of their actions which lead to XANA winning or having better chances of winning with no real necessity, kills of the region.

Alright, but something still seems fishy about that (she doesn't attack anyone else other than Team Lyoko, Herb, Nicholas, Millie and Tamiya...everyone else she leaves alone for the most part), and definitely doesn't make it acceptable behavior. If that were the case, it could be applied to extreme cases (the ones circling in the news currently) about those nearby but not directly related getting hurt. Just because it happens, doesn't mean it's acceptable behavior. We can delineate the reasons for it, but Sissi made the choice ultimately to go through with the things she did. She could have just as easily chosen to let it go.

Also makes fun of Emilie LeDuc, but the interaction with the other students is extremely limited. The only secondary students cast that interact with the gang even remotely semi-regularly is Milly and Tamiya, and the rudeness shown to them is many times smaller what she deals to the Lyoko gang, especially Odd.

But there wasn't any danger to civilians in "Exploration"; just danger to the secret of Lyoko. And Kiwi led the way...on Sissi's orders, so again, they were led there in a sense.

So if they found Kiwi, gotten the idea to use hm to find Jeremie and the others, it would be different. How? They were actively searching and as far as Jeremie and the gang were concerned, it was their idea.

And I can agree on her "following her conscience" and "acting out of concern" as being not so bad a reason, although, I still hold that because it was still done without some sort of group/Aelita consensus, that's the real reason why things blew up at first (as it was a breaking of trust).

And I know I've pointed out her two other big mistakes; turning her back on the group, and then asking that the super computer be shut down as well as not doing anything to stop the police from being involved (which was rather short-sighted since she would have been interogated too most likely).

And if I recall correctly, they only collectively got mad at her when they found out she'd tattled and then when she said the computer should be shut down. After the RTTP, only Odd and Ulrich really interact with her, and Ulrich only states that he'd rather hang out with his real friends. There were no insults (as in name-calling), pranks, and whatever other nonsense in "XANA Awakens" at the end. Taking into consideration that they know what she did in terms of breaking trust, that she was yelling at Ulrich for not showing up to something that he never agreed to be at in the first place, and was being kind of overbearing about something that was not too big a deal at the time, really...was his reaction that over the top, considering he could have been worse?

I'm not saying that he was nice about it in any sense (or that he couldn't have been nicer)...but considering Ulrich's temper and that Sissi was really laying it on kind of thick for such a minor trespass, without even asking for an explanation first, he could have done worse.

Everything done afterwards in later episodes can be argued as provoked in one way or another by Sissi.

Tone can mean as much as the actual words stated, and he did place emphasis on the word real. Yumi was actually there as well, as he was walking off with them. And the gang gets mad at each other all the time with little explanation, out of jealousy, putting one's foot in their own mouth, bad scenarios gone horribly wrong, reaon why so many times problems occur just from a member moping. And Ulrich could have done worse, but he could of done better.

Hmmm...still debateable. It's a plausible, but certainly not a confirmed, since we don't know what all it took for Jeremie to create the vehicles...and he never tried materializing them.

This is still assuming that the XANA problem is taken care of and research on materialization can be done without XANA deciding to roll a MegaTank or a couple Tarantulas out of the scanners and onto the researchers.

XANA clearly lost interest in helping humans a long time ago, so it'd take some sort of miracle to get him to be so compliant.

Still, talking only about the scanners and leaving XANA out of the equation, the potential for materialization would be worth so much financially that it would be worth throwing a couple of milliions of dollars at it to perfect and replicate so that its easily manufacturable.

It's not the same, but still very similar. The materialization chambers would also take up space, no matter how compact one says they are as you'd still need a place to run wires and get enough electricity from, as they're not self-powering. Add into that, the trouble of finding enough Uranium cores to power them (and getting past the politicians that are advocating the "Not in my Backyard" policy), and you're in a huge rut.

The politics, I'd imagine, would be the proverbial noose for such a plan. Not only would everyone be riled by dangerous radioactive elements being involved, but the religious sects would be very quick to get on about how "technological creation" is an abomination, or whatever.

And there's still the space issue, as well as the initial money needed to pay for such a project. Where would it come from...and what else would be required to swing the deal (as in control of the machines, and such).

A coal or nuclear powerplant are not in any definition compact, yet we put money and research in to creating them to place in normal usage. Point being is relatively speaking, like the coal and nuclear powerplant, they would more compact than a wind farm. And why would they need wires? It may not be self-powering, but its battery operated, granted with a uranium bar. But if uranium is too much to consider politically, surely it can be researched to find other forms of energy to power it. After all, it ran on one bar of uranium for more than 10 years, surely with that kind of efficiency, it can probably upkeep itself by creating its own fuel necessary to maintain itself, provided there are workers to ensure no mechanical failure. All the primary research about the machine should already be done by Jeremie's hands, and if not, a team of crack engineers will probably work more efficiently than 1 12 year old junior high school child. So even a small one can start producing its own funding in material and money, and let it grow for a bit until it can fund bigger and better materialization plants, and you've got yourself a revolutionary machine. Heck, I'd sell it out to replicate computer hardware at at no cost other than to power it, since it can create hardware from scratch with no physical material.

The juries still out for me on Sissi's bringing of "help".

This example seems weird, since you say effort won't get a passing grade no matter what. Yumi doesn't give any effort in your example (a shell and spare parts) or at least not a comparative one. A fairer comparison would be Yumi builds one of those first airplanes that, while it looked like an airplane, couldn't get off the ground. Sissi builds the Wright Brothers Flyer, but then insists on flying it and crashes it straight into the Atlantic. I think that's a more accurate comparison. Sissi built a plane, but neither of them got across the Atlantic, just as Sissi brought help (and again I'm using that term loosely, out of skeptical-ness), but then crashed and burned in the execution of the rest of the task.

I wouldn't say Sissi passed, but she would of gotten a better (albeit still failing) grade for the fact that it did more to help the situation (prior to the tower deactivation) than Yumi, even though at the end, it didn't do anything and made it worse afterwards. Even in your re-writing of my analogy, Sissi still made it farther. And what would happen if the plan backfired? Had she gotten the authorities to act, but the authorities did nothing useful and came to the factory to shut of the supercomputer, wouldn't she be in the same boat as Sissi, as unlikely as that is to happen since they already had full control of the RTTP?

Point taken, then...although I'm still skeptical of Sissi's being more favorable, as unusable help that would have proved to be another thing to watch out for, isn't exactly what I'd call favorable over no help at all....

Unuseable in hindsight, not necessarily at out of question when she told the principal. I find Sissi's plan better as it provided results that could of potentially benefitted, and sometimes we'd rather have results, than nothing.

Yumi didn't know that it was targeting her. The note Jeremie sent her said it was targeting the school, so she was acting on that information. Faulting her for misinformation from Jeremie, isn't quite fair, as there was no way she could have known. Sissi had a much easier attack to figure out in terms of where it was going to hit next.

The difference is again, permission to give the secret out, which in this comparison, Yumi didn't even do.

Based on this particular line of reasoning: "She's trying to convince people who have no reason to believe her otherwise, and all of them are completely not open to the idea of a kid knowing more about something than them." I still don't see much difference between Yumi trying to convince the principal and Siss trying to convince the principal, because looking at it from the outside, it is still a child trying to get an adult to see things her way. Sissi just happened to be better at (whatever the reason may be).

I completely disagree that "misery loves company" is an excuse for ratting others out or getting others into trouble.

Sissi ratting them out proves she already suspected them of being involved in this some way, so she wasn't so much a bystander.

I will have to check the tapes for this too, since I could have sworn she asked about her father before Jeremie and Aelita said a word about Lyoko itself (and again, I'd think Aelita's presence is the overall factor here). I'd take your word for it on the chronology but I would like to see for myself...if only because it frustrates me when I can't remember the order of plot devices and dialogue in these episodes.

Among misery loves company, the principal did kidnap Odd and Yumi. The likely thing to do would be to ask the people who are closest to Odd and Yumi, ie, the rest of the gang. It would be logical to believe that they had some connection to the mess, and obviously the police agreed otherwise they wouldn't have attempted to apprehend them. The fact that they tried to sneak away from the crowd would alert anyone mindful that they had something to hide.

And if we're going to say her ratting them out no longer makes her a bystander, doesn't the principal who assisted Sissi in getting her to the nurse after the attack, technically no longer a bystander, as he has is now a participant in helping Sissi which leads to him being a part of the events to come?

But then, wouldn't the effects of Sissi's getting help, those being the shutting down of the computer, Aelita's disconnection/deletion/death, the involvement of the police which would have surely led to trouble with the law for Jeremie at the least, have negative effects on her overall performance? Looking at all of the negative effects her actions had, I don't see how she can be given a "Pass" on overall performance.

If where we ultimately differ is that I feel it was wrong that she was willing to sacrifice a life/existence not her own without any shown remorse because she wasn't known to be "human" at the time, and you feel is isn't...then I guess that's another impass for us in terms of this debate...and a big one, at that.

I'm not saying passing, I'm saying better. Would you also consider the fact that shutting down the computer would have lead to a safer community, that Jeremie and his friends would no longer have to spend years under stress, pain, silent suffering, the potential of human growth at the discovery of this wonderous new invention, have positive influences on the overall view of her judgement?

And I'm not saying its wrong, I'm saying its valid. Personally, I'd side more with the gang, then with anyone else about the destruction of Aelita, but that doesn't mean that its the right decision, its a valid decision. Example includes abortion, stem cell research, validity of religion, political affiliation, evolution, death penalty, gun control, etc. For these issues, one side is not right and one side is not wrong, they are valid decisions on both sides, and again, I can't fault someone's character for choosing a valid stance, that would just be me being judgemental.

Aelita's had severaly debates though already ("The Key" being a really big one as well, I think).

12.5 pages? That's in MS Word or another type program right? Laughing Lol...That's rather impressive really. ^.^

Well considering that this response and your response prior take up a total of 20 pages each, I believe all heck has broken loose on this debate. Whatever record you set in terms posting length when you first posted your response to TB3, we have shattered 5-6 times over the course of one week.

Congratulations!

[Mewberries151]

*sing-song* This is the debate that never ends, it just goes on and on my friend, some people started thinking, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue thinking it forever just because...

Rofl! *sings along while typing*

I thought 2 wrongs don't make a right? "One wrong doesn't make a right, two wrongs makes me feel better." So their response to dealing with stealing and blackmailing of Ulrich's property, is the stealing and blackmailing of Sissi's property, atleast going by what you've stated earlier. Heck, she already had Sissi's diary in hand, there was no real need to read it, unless she's digging for backup material come later days or feels one bad turn deserves another. Not exactly quite the moral upstandedness we expect from the gang, especially Yumi who is supposed to be the most calm and most mature, unless they only do it for people they actually like. And judging by Ulrich and Odd's response when they found out, they obviously approved of the measure.

Ulrich and Odd didn't know precisely what Yumi had done. Ulrich certainly couldn't hear Yumi's part of the conversation. He only knew it was Yumi calling when Sissi mentioned her name. I doubt he had any idea what she'd done other than that it had worked (since Sissi never mentions Yumi having her diary during the conversation). That's why he thanked her. Odd didn't make any response other than to happily offer Ulrich a seat next to him, and he definitely couldn't have known what Yumi did.

Also, Yumi had to read the diary in order to prove to Sissi that she had it. Sissi wouldn't have believed her otherwise (since anyone could just say they had it, and Sissi wouldn't have realized it was missing until after the trip to the pool when she went to write in it).

If you're talking about why she read the diary when she first found it, it was because she needed to check the hand-writing to make sure it was Ulrich's.

And if you’re talking speficially about the entry about why Sissi stole Ulrich’s diary, I’m guessing Yumi was reading because they needed to know how much she really knew about Lyoko and whether or not she had already gone to anyone about it.

In a way, it works more in Sissi’s favor (or at least her fans favor) that Yumi read that entry…because otherwise Sissi’s motives wouldn’t have been know (“desperationâ€

[cuttyyumi offline]

*scrapes brain off of wall*

Rats.... I wanted to see Jeremie on Lyoko.

Oh well, I hope one of the new epesodes features jeremie getting brutaly stuffed into the scanners and vertualised for XANA's entertainment.

......

>_>

<_<


.....


I didn't say that......

yeah i want to see that too. it's about time we see jeremie go into lyoko after all he proved that he could survie xana's attacks.