Hillary gave up (election+general politics thread as well)

[. offline]

a little socialism is good. China's doing pretty well for it's self with it's comunist goverment with capitalist elements. Our Canadian friends to the north seem to be doing just fine with their socialized medicine. I always have felt it's f*cked up that if your dying, and the hospital says your life because some f*cker called 911 that you end up stuck with a bill.

McCain won't raise taxes, then I ask you friend, where the f*ck is he gonna get money to run the country? McCain will raise taxes too, at least Obama is being up front about it.

For the last time, boo freaking hoo, saddam was a terrible dictator for the people in his OWN COUNTRY. They should of booted his *ss out, why should we have to fight and die for their freedom?

McCain lost any chance for my vote when he flat out said he felt Row vs Wade decision was wrong. And Colin even said that Sarah Palin is in no way shape or forum capable of running this country.

BY THE WAY did you catch the McCain support rally in the midwest? Oh it was so full of old bitty's calling Barrack a muslim and Protestants praying that McCain wins to keep the free world out of the muslim's Gods, The Buddhist Gods, The Hindu Gods and blah blah blah. How ignorant do you have to be to say Buddhist have a god? If thats the kind of crowd the republican party garners, I fear the worst if McCain wins.

[RySenkari offline]

Where are you getting this about drilling? And, we need to look into other ways to power our stuff. Clean coal, wind, solar, hydro, and, yes, ethanol. And, may I point out, that the markets are lowering the price of gas?


And still, these loans were handed out during gas prices rising. Banks shouldn't of been FORCED to hand this crap out. AND, may I say, that high risk loans are stupid, no matter what economic climate.

The markets are only lowering the price of gas because of demand destruction: the economy is tanking and people can't afford gas. If they can't afford it, they can't demand it. Demand goes down, price goes down. We've tried drilling offshore before, it still had to be supplemented with domestic land wells and overseas imports. If drilling offshore would solve all our problems, we'd already be doing it. The problem with offshore drilling is that it's being spun as a panacea, and what I'm worried about is that any offshore drilling operation will reduce support for alternative fuels, which we cannot afford to do. The loans were handed out BEFORE gas became this prohibitively expensive. They were working out before Bush tanked the economy.

You buy from just small businesses?

Of course not. But Obama is not going to tax small businesses. They are exempt from all his tax programs. When he tries to explain that, he gets cut off.

And, may I say, you keep forgetting that Sadaam was bribing his way outta ELEVEN FLIPPING sanctions, bullying around his own people, and DID (I must repeat this) DID have ties to the Taliban.

Okay, by that logic, let's go nuke the crap out of China and Russia. Let's invade North Korea. Their leaders do the same thing to their people as Saddam did, and we're not even THINKING of going after them. *cough*becausetheydonthaveoil...ohwaitrussiadoeshaveoil...d'oh!*cough* The United States doesn't go to war to liberate anyone. We didn't even go to war with Nazi Germany to stop Hitler from bullying people, we went to war with them because Hitler wanted to create an economic sphere of exclusivity over Eurasia and would only deal with South America using Askimarks. If we wanted to go after the Taliban, we should've stayed in Afghanistan only and caught Bin Laden when we had the chance. Now he's hanging out in Pakistan and we're not about to go into there. Saddam wasn't working with the Taliban. Saddam was a secularist. The Taliban, and al-Queda, HATED Saddam. We went to Iraq to steal the oil.

I must say, insulting somebody's appearance or name is just immature, stupid, and generally prepubescent.

I'm 21, and after all the "Barack Hussein Obama" crap that Rush and his idiot listeners have been pulling over the past year, I think I'm entitled to a bit of name-calling.

Okay, I got a challenge for you. Define Socialism. Now, list out Obama's gov. plan right next to it and put it up. what do you get?

Socialism =/= Communism. Socialism is not bad. Look at France. The CL voice actors seem pretty happy with their government-sponsored health care and seven weeks of government-paid vacations. I wish right-wingers would quit trying to label socialists as Stalinists who want to shove half the country into a gulag. There's nothing wrong with taxing the rich at 40-50%. They're not going to take their ball and go home, as Ayn Rand would like to have you believe.

[TheAppleFreak]

Okay, I got a challenge for you. Define Socialism. Now, list out Obama's gov. plan right next to it and put it up. what do you get?

Socialism =/= Communism. Socialism is not bad. Look at France. The CL voice actors seem pretty happy with their government-sponsored health care and seven weeks of government-paid vacations. I wish right-wingers would quit trying to label socialists as Stalinists who want to shove half the country into a gulag. There's nothing wrong with taxing the rich at 40-50%. They're not going to take their ball and go home, as Ayn Rand would like to have you believe.

Theoretically, communism is an economic system where there is no private property and the government owns everything. Because the people own the government, they thus own everything.
It's just when corrupt leaders *cough* KimsungIl *cough* take over the government, that's when communism evolves into a dictatorship.

[JesusFreak offline]

<s>tl;dr</s>

Where are you getting this about drilling? And, we need to look into other ways to power our stuff. Clean coal, wind, solar, hydro, and, yes, ethanol. And, may I point out, that the markets are lowering the price of gas?


And still, these loans were handed out during gas prices rising. Banks shouldn't of been FORCED to hand this crap out. AND, may I say, that high risk loans are stupid, no matter what economic climate.

The markets are only lowering the price of gas because of demand destruction: the economy is tanking and people can't afford gas. If they can't afford it, they can't demand it. Demand goes down, price goes down. We've tried drilling offshore before, it still had to be supplemented with domestic land wells and overseas imports. If drilling offshore would solve all our problems, we'd already be doing it. The problem with offshore drilling is that it's being spun as a panacea, and what I'm worried about is that any offshore drilling operation will reduce support for alternative fuels, which we cannot afford to do. The loans were handed out BEFORE gas became this prohibitively expensive. They were working out before Bush tanked the economy.

And that, my friend, is the beauty of the market.

Well, you seem to have forgotten ANWR. Right now, we give a crap about caribou and birds more than we do gas. You want to make sure gas doesn't get so expensive? Drill. We got enough oil in Alaska to last us a looong time. And, I agree we can't let that get in the way of alternative fuels research.

You buy from just small businesses?

Of course not. But Obama is not going to tax small businesses. They are exempt from all his tax programs. When he tries to explain that, he gets cut off. [/quote]

Well, who primarily makes most of the stuff you buy?

And, may I say, you keep forgetting that Sadaam was bribing his way outta ELEVEN FLIPPING sanctions, bullying around his own people, and DID (I must repeat this) DID have ties to the Taliban.

Okay, by that logic, let's go nuke the crap out of China and Russia. Let's invade North Korea. Their leaders do the same thing to their people as Saddam did, and we're not even THINKING of going after them. *cough*becausetheydonthaveoil...ohwaitrussiadoeshaveoil...d'oh!*cough* The United States doesn't go to war to liberate anyone. We didn't even go to war with Nazi Germany to stop Hitler from bullying people, we went to war with them because Hitler wanted to create an economic sphere of exclusivity over Eurasia and would only deal with South America using Askimarks. If we wanted to go after the Taliban, we should've stayed in Afghanistan only and caught Bin Laden when we had the chance. Now he's hanging out in Pakistan and we're not about to go into there. Saddam wasn't working with the Taliban. Saddam was a secularist. The Taliban, and al-Queda, HATED Saddam. We went to Iraq to steal the oil.

We were thinking about going there too, if you remember. I do agree we should of caught Osama.

I must say, insulting somebody's appearance or name is just immature, stupid, and generally prepubescent.

I'm 21, and after all the "Barack Hussein Obama" crap that Rush and his idiot listeners have been pulling over the past year, I think I'm entitled to a bit of name-calling.[/quote]

MMnope, not really. If you want to sink to that level, fine by me.

Okay, I got a challenge for you. Define Socialism. Now, list out Obama's gov. plan right next to it and put it up. what do you get?

Socialism =/= Communism. Socialism is not bad. Look at France. The CL voice actors seem pretty happy with their government-sponsored health care and seven weeks of government-paid vacations. I wish right-wingers would quit trying to label socialists as Stalinists who want to shove half the country into a gulag. There's nothing wrong with taxing the rich at 40-50%. They're not going to take their ball and go home, as Ayn Rand would like to have you believe.[/quote]

You still haven't done what I asked

[RySenkari offline]

And that, my friend, is the beauty of the market.

Well, you seem to have forgotten ANWR. Right now, we give a crap about caribou and birds more than we do gas. You want to make sure gas doesn't get so expensive? Drill. We got enough oil in Alaska to last us a looong time. And, I agree we can't let that get in the way of alternative fuels research.

Ahahahahaha BS. Go to any peak oil website and they'll tell you the same thing I'm about to: ANWR, like the offshore oil deposits, will only buy us about a year of time. We cannot drill our way out of the oil crisis.

Well, who primarily makes most of the stuff you buy?

Big businesses. Doesn't matter. They'll keep running if we tax them.

You still haven't done what I asked

Socialism = using money from government tax revenue to fund social programs that benefit everyone. Including the rich, because if the poor people aren't dying in the streets, they won't be tempted to rob a rich guy's house. So, I ask you again, what's wrong with socialism? The French (including the voice actors of Code Lyoko everyone here idolizes) seem to like it just fine.

[JesusFreak offline]

And that, my friend, is the beauty of the market.

Well, you seem to have forgotten ANWR. Right now, we give a crap about caribou and birds more than we do gas. You want to make sure gas doesn't get so expensive? Drill. We got enough oil in Alaska to last us a looong time. And, I agree we can't let that get in the way of alternative fuels research.

Ahahahahaha BS. Go to any peak oil website and they'll tell you the same thing I'm about to: ANWR, like the offshore oil deposits, will only buy us about a year of time. We cannot drill our way out of the oil crisis.

Well, not in the beginning. we get the stuff up and running, and it will HELP. I keep saying this, we gotta use more than oil. Clean coal, natural gas, wind, hydroelectric, and solar. we gotta do that too, cuz we gotta stop dumping turcks full of money over to Canada.

Well, who primarily makes most of the stuff you buy?

Big businesses. Doesn't matter. They'll keep running if we tax them.

They'll keep running, but they'll raise prices to offset the taxes. Ever hear the story of the Gatling gun? The dude who made it was a doctor, who made the thing so that less soldiers could kill more, resulting in fewer casualties. Only, it just made the soldiers deadlier, and brought in more horrific wounds and more people. It's like that.

You still haven't done what I asked

Socialism = using money from government tax revenue to fund social programs that benefit everyone. Including the rich, because if the poor people aren't dying in the streets, they won't be tempted to rob a rich guy's house. So, I ask you again, what's wrong with socialism? The French (including the voice actors of Code Lyoko everyone here idolizes) seem to like it just fine.

How well does this tend to work out? I could list some problems with France, but, since this is a show dedicated to a french show, I'll get set on fire and tarred and feathered and whipped to death and starved until I die (bonus question: which book did I get that from?)

And not all poor people are poor because they weren't born into a wealthy family. What ticks me off about socialism is that people who either don't work, refuse to work, or are to stoned to work are getting my money (or my dad's money for now, but, still...). My dad works massive hours, and he deserves the money he gets (and no, we aren't rich).

[Tangent128 offline]

Basically, instead of paying high premiums for health insurance directly, you pay for it indirectly through higher prices. I'm not going to judge whether that's good or not.

I don't put stock* in any economic system. Capitalism gets corrupted by money, communism gets corrupted by power, socialism gets corrupted by the status quo, etc.

I'm no fan of oil energy; it feels so primitive, and electricity is so much more flexible. (LeTourneau earthmoving equipment has used electrically-driven wheels for over 50 years now!)
Still, we're currently addicted to it- even if we had some breakthrough in vehicle batteries today, it would take a while for them to diffuse through the market. In the meantime, better to at least keep the money here than prop up the middle eastern regimes.

Long term, we definitely need to go for more nuclear power, the French have gotten that one right. Other alternatives should be explored too, of course.

* I might buy stock in our economic system, however. Prices are nice and low right now. Crocs is going for $3, I think. But the commission fee looks to be killer.

[RySenkari offline]

Well, not in the beginning. we get the stuff up and running, and it will HELP. I keep saying this, we gotta use more than oil. Clean coal, natural gas, wind, hydroelectric, and solar. we gotta do that too, cuz we gotta stop dumping turcks full of money over to Canada.

If people can show that they will still support alternative sources of power if we start drilling offshore, then I might support that. But right now it seems that a lot of people JUST want to drill drill drill.

They'll keep running, but they'll raise prices to offset the taxes. Ever hear the story of the Gatling gun? The dude who made it was a doctor, who made the thing so that less soldiers could kill more, resulting in fewer casualties. Only, it just made the soldiers deadlier, and brought in more horrific wounds and more people. It's like that.

Prices get raised all the time. It's called inflation and it's unfortunate, and hopefully they don't raise the prices so much that it exceeds the normal rate of inflation. Of course, any business that raises prices TOO much, people will just go elsewhere. Somebody will refuse to raise their prices, and the people will go there.

How well does this tend to work out? I could list some problems with France, but, since this is a show dedicated to a french show, I'll get set on fire and tarred and feathered and whipped to death and starved until I die (bonus question: which book did I get that from?)

If it's Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead, I'm gonna be mad.

And not all poor people are poor because they weren't born into a wealthy family. What ticks me off about socialism is that people who either don't work, refuse to work, or are to stoned to work are getting my money (or my dad's money for now, but, still...). My dad works massive hours, and he deserves the money he gets (and no, we aren't rich).

If your dad makes less than $250,000, Obama will give him a tax cut. If he's making more, what the heck is the problem? Nobody wants to tax him more than 50%. $125,000+ a year is a ton of money, unless your dad's bought a McMansion that he's struggling to pay the mortgage for. I hope that's not the case. If you want to use the "he deserves that money" argument, why do you support paying taxes at all? Everyone's gotta pay taxes (except for the very poor). Even people who refuse to work deserve three bowls of gruel a day and a nice cot to sleep on at some homeless shelter. If someone's happy with lazing around all day and coming home to that, fine by me. There are TONS of people who wouldn't be, myself included. If you want more than three bowls of gruel and a cot, you work. I think that's plenty of incentive.

[Tangent128 offline]

I take it you don't belong to the Jamestown school of economics?

Anyways, I favor the Fair Tax. Just replace all the current federal taxes with a ~30% sales tax, then refund the tax on everything up to the poverty line. The tax also doesn't apply to used items, encouraging conservation.

[JesusFreak offline]

Well, not in the beginning. we get the stuff up and running, and it will HELP. I keep saying this, we gotta use more than oil. Clean coal, natural gas, wind, hydroelectric, and solar. we gotta do that too, cuz we gotta stop dumping turcks full of money over to Canada.

If people can show that they will still support alternative sources of power if we start drilling offshore, then I might support that. But right now it seems that a lot of people JUST want to drill drill drill.

That's a valid point, and people are already doing that.

They'll keep running, but they'll raise prices to offset the taxes. Ever hear the story of the Gatling gun? The dude who made it was a doctor, who made the thing so that less soldiers could kill more, resulting in fewer casualties. Only, it just made the soldiers deadlier, and brought in more horrific wounds and more people. It's like that.

Prices get raised all the time. It's called inflation and it's unfortunate, and hopefully they don't raise the prices so much that it exceeds the normal rate of inflation. Of course, any business that raises prices TOO much, people will just go elsewhere. Somebody will refuse to raise their prices, and the people will go there.

Is the tax rate going to exceed the regular rate of taxation? Yus. Will this raise prices. You betcha. Will some other group of forumgoing slackers have a conversation on how inflation was totally unexpected in a few years? Probably.

How well does this tend to work out? I could list some problems with France, but, since this is a show dedicated to a french show, I'll get set on fire and tarred and feathered and whipped to death and starved until I die (bonus question: which book did I get that from?)

If it's Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead, I'm gonna be mad.

...no. I'm a Republican, not a Libertarian. It's from A Horse and His Boy.

And not all poor people are poor because they weren't born into a wealthy family. What ticks me off about socialism is that people who either don't work, refuse to work, or are to stoned to work are getting my money (or my dad's money for now, but, still...). My dad works massive hours, and he deserves the money he gets (and no, we aren't rich).

If your dad makes less than $250,000, Obama will give him a tax cut. If he's making more, what the heck is the problem? Nobody wants to tax him more than 50%. $125,000+ a year is a ton of money, unless your dad's bought a McMansion that he's struggling to pay the mortgage for. I hope that's not the case. If you want to use the "he deserves that money" argument, why do you support paying taxes at all? Everyone's gotta pay taxes (except for the very poor). Even people who refuse to work deserve three bowls of gruel a day and a nice cot to sleep on at some homeless shelter. If someone's happy with lazing around all day and coming home to that, fine by me. There are TONS of people who wouldn't be, myself included. If you want more than three bowls of gruel and a cot, you work. I think that's plenty of incentive.

Look at welfare now. Look at the people who indeed deserve it, but then look at the Welfare Queens. This is what's going to happen, but a lot more. What Capitalism lets you do is get more rewards for more work, and less rewards for less work. Honestly, if people REFUSE to work (not just getting laid off, getting laid off and not looking for a new job.), I'm not sure they deserve the three bowls of gruel. And before y'all scream hypocrite, this is in line with what I believe because te Bible says if ya don't work, ya don't eat. This, I think, is what Tangent mentioned. If it's not, please correct meh.


The gov. is here to keep us safe, an that requires some taxes. I favor small government, obviously. That requires taxation, but nowhere NEAR as much. And my dad makes around 120k because he WORKS HIS BUTT OFF for it, for my sis and I's future. He works long hours and overtime. This is called "getting ahead".

[RySenkari offline]

Anyways, I favor the Fair Tax. Just replace all the current federal taxes with a ~30% sales tax, then refund the tax on everything up to the poverty line. The tax also doesn't apply to used items, encouraging conservation.

The fair tax is regressive, even if it's refunded up to the property line. That's not "fair" at all.

Is the tax rate going to exceed the regular rate of taxation? Yus. Will this raise prices. You betcha. Will some other group of forumgoing slackers have a conversation on how inflation was totally unexpected in a few years? Probably.

Even if prices DO go up, the middle-class and poor tax cuts will balance everything out anyway. Plus, I wouldn't worry about things costing a bit more if my health care and college education were paid for.

Look at welfare now. Look at the people who indeed deserve it, but then look at the Welfare Queens. This is what's going to happen, but a lot more. What Capitalism lets you do is get more rewards for more work, and less rewards for less work. Honestly, if people REFUSE to work (not just getting laid off, getting laid off and not looking for a new job.), I'm not sure they deserve the three bowls of gruel. And before y'all scream hypocrite, this is in line with what I believe because te Bible says if ya don't work, ya don't eat. This, I think, is what Tangent mentioned. If it's not, please correct meh.

I'd rather let 100 people leech off the system than let one working person who truly needs it go hungry. It is not that expensive to provide basic food for people, look what Joe Arpaio is doing in the Maricopa County jails (I don't like him much either, but he IS very cost-efficient), feeding prisoners on ten cents a day. Even if 100 million people refused to work, we could feed them all on $3.6 billion dollars a year, which is a LOT less than we're spending right now in Iraq. Obviously, a lot less people than that will choose to leech off the system. So what? They're human beings and they don't deserve to starve, and there's a lot of BS in the Bible anyway, and this is coming from a Christian. The Old Testament of the Bible was written by ignorant, bigoted old men who delighted in the suffering of those who didn't believe what they did. I can take the Old Testament with a grain of salt. "If you don't work, you don't eat" is a HORRIBLE, HEARTLESS thing to believe.

The gov. is here to keep us safe, an that requires some taxes. I favor small government, obviously. That requires taxation, but nowhere NEAR as much. And my dad makes around 120k because he WORKS HIS BUTT OFF for it, for my sis and I's future. He works long hours and overtime. This is called "getting ahead"

If your dad makes $120,000 a year, he would get a tax cut from Obama's plan. My dad made about that much too working his ass off and we did great under Clinton. It was under Bush that my dad started getting laid off.

[Tangent128 offline]

How is it regressive? Last I checked, rich people tend to buy more things, and thus they pay more sales tax. Granted, "fair" is a very subjective term.

As far as welfare, we should certainly help those who are seeking employment (and initiate more work programs and such. We could use another CCC.).
However, is it heartless to ask people to lift a finger to feed themselves?*

*(Obviously, you make exceptions for people who are unable to metaphorically lift a finger.)


[I would also like to note that I have no personal objection to higher taxes, if they get put to good use. However, I would much prefer a simpler tax code.]

[RySenkari offline]

How is it regressive? Last I checked, rich people tend to buy more things, and thus they pay more sales tax. Granted, "fair" is a very subjective term.

It's about taxes as a percentage of income. Naturally, poor people will spend more % of their income (on necessities) and thus more % of their income would come from sales taxes.

[. offline]

WE HAVE NO NATIONAL WELFARE SYSTEM PEOPLE!

The federal goverment takes a large sum of cash and based upon statistics of how many poor there are, they divide it up amongst the 50 states and tell them to use it to help the poor as they see fit. We haven't had a national system since 1996 so if you have a problem with it, thats on a STATE level. President really has no control over it.

[Tangent128 offline]

It's about taxes as a percentage of income. Naturally, poor people will spend more % of their income (on necessities) and thus more % of their income would come from sales taxes.

And that's the whole point of the prebate- necessities aren't taxed. If you're at or below the poverty line, your taxes are 0. As you make more money, the percentage approaches 30%. Yes, rich people are more likely to keep their money in the bank or stock market, but they do eventually spend it.

[RySenkari offline]

And that's the whole point of the prebate- necessities aren't taxed. If you're at or below the poverty line, your taxes are 0. As you make more money, the percentage approaches 30%. Yes, rich people are more likely to keep their money in the bank or stock market, but they do eventually spend it.

Necessities aren't just food, thanks to the way our society operates. Things like gas would be taxed under this plan, putting a big burden on the middle class.

[Tangent128 offline]

Gas is already taxed. And if the cost of living is higher, just raise the poverty line.

(Needless to say, it would still be a good idea to get off gas. Higher gas prices could encourage adoption of electrics.)

[TheAppleFreak]

Not only electrics, but perhaps pneumatic-powered vehicles. I read an article about a French car that could run on air.

[JesusFreak offline]

I hate being late to the party. I also hate reading walls o' text. Therefore, I shall type late and add spacing.

I'd rather let 100 people leech off the system than let one working person who truly needs it go hungry. It is not that expensive to provide basic food for people, look what Joe Arpaio is doing in the Maricopa County jails (I don't like him much either, but he IS very cost-efficient), feeding prisoners on ten cents a day.

Even if 100 million people refused to work, we could feed them all on $3.6 billion dollars a year, which is a LOT less than we're spending right now in Iraq.

Obviously, a lot less people than that will choose to leech off the system.

So what? They're human beings and they don't deserve to starve, and there's a lot of BS in the Bible anyway, and this is coming from a Christian. The Old Testament of the Bible was written by ignorant, bigoted old men who delighted in the suffering of those who didn't believe what they did. I can take the Old Testament with a grain of salt. "If you don't work, you don't eat" is a HORRIBLE, HEARTLESS thing to believe.

See? Socialism provides BASICS to people. It's repressive, denies the importance of the individual, and other nasty things. How much steak do those prisoners get to eat? Or how about some McDonalds chicken sandwiches?

*sigh* I shall be clearer now. The Bible says if you don't work, you don't eat. This DOES NOT mean that they starve and die. This means it's SUPPOSED to be the Church's job to help 'em out, and not the beauracracy. I intend to help out the poor through my Boy Scout Troop, to which I was elected Senior Patrol Leader on my 3 years of worthwile executive experience (more than Obama!). And, it's more of a proverb than anything.


Now if you need me, I'll be in the Games Forum.

[RySenkari offline]

See? Socialism provides BASICS to people. It's repressive, denies the importance of the individual, and other nasty things. How much steak do those prisoners get to eat? Or how about some McDonalds chicken sandwiches?

Basics to people who refuse to work. If you work, you earn money (and no, you would not be taxed for all of it under socialism, this is not communism) and you can enjoy nicer things. And I do think non-violent criminals should get some decent meals once in a while.

*sigh* I shall be clearer now. The Bible says if you don't work, you don't eat. This DOES NOT mean that they starve and die. This means it's SUPPOSED to be the Church's job to help 'em out, and not the beauracracy. I intend to help out the poor through my Boy Scout Troop, to which I was elected Senior Patrol Leader on my 3 years of worthwile executive experience (more than Obama!). And, it's more of a proverb than anything.

Both can help out the poor equally well. Honestly, it does not cost that much to keep the poor and hungry from starving.

[. offline]

[JesusFreak offline]

See? Socialism provides BASICS to people. It's repressive, denies the importance of the individual, and other nasty things. How much steak do those prisoners get to eat? Or how about some McDonalds chicken sandwiches?

Basics to people who refuse to work. If you work, you earn money (and no, you would not be taxed for all of it under socialism, this is not communism) and you can enjoy nicer things. And I do think non-violent criminals should get some decent meals once in a while.

...then why do I have to pay for it?

*sigh* I shall be clearer now. The Bible says if you don't work, you don't eat. This DOES NOT mean that they starve and die. This means it's SUPPOSED to be the Church's job to help 'em out, and not the beauracracy. I intend to help out the poor through my Boy Scout Troop, to which I was elected Senior Patrol Leader on my 3 years of worthwile executive experience (more than Obama!). And, it's more of a proverb than anything.

Both can help out the poor equally well. Honestly, it does not cost that much to keep the poor and hungry from starving.

Yeah, well, you shouldn't have to pay for it if you don't want the government deciding where the help goes. That's why donating to charity is important.

[RySenkari offline]

...then why do I have to pay for it?

Because you're not selfish?

Yeah, well, you shouldn't have to pay for it if you don't want the government deciding where the help goes. That's why donating to charity is important.

I wouldn't mind a system where there are boxes on the income tax form where you can put a checkmark by all the programs you want your money going to.

[. offline]

See? Socialism provides BASICS to people. It's repressive, denies the importance of the individual, and other nasty things. How much steak do those prisoners get to eat? Or how about some McDonalds chicken sandwiches?

Basics to people who refuse to work. If you work, you earn money (and no, you would not be taxed for all of it under socialism, this is not communism) and you can enjoy nicer things. And I do think non-violent criminals should get some decent meals once in a while.

...then why do I have to pay for it?

*sigh* I shall be clearer now. The Bible says if you don't work, you don't eat. This DOES NOT mean that they starve and die. This means it's SUPPOSED to be the Church's job to help 'em out, and not the beauracracy. I intend to help out the poor through my Boy Scout Troop, to which I was elected Senior Patrol Leader on my 3 years of worthwile executive experience (more than Obama!). And, it's more of a proverb than anything.

Both can help out the poor equally well. Honestly, it does not cost that much to keep the poor and hungry from starving.

Yeah, well, you shouldn't have to pay for it if you don't want the government deciding where the help goes. That's why donating to charity is important.

Most people on welfare: Single Mothers, Unskilled Workers that have been recently laid off ECT.

My Goodness Gracious, do any of you actually know how wellfare is run? The government only supports those that are actively seeking employment! And you pay into it because you never know, you may need a little bounce off the ropes yourself at some point.

[JesusFreak offline]

See? Socialism provides BASICS to people. It's repressive, denies the importance of the individual, and other nasty things. How much steak do those prisoners get to eat? Or how about some McDonalds chicken sandwiches?

Basics to people who refuse to work. If you work, you earn money (and no, you would not be taxed for all of it under socialism, this is not communism) and you can enjoy nicer things. And I do think non-violent criminals should get some decent meals once in a while.

...then why do I have to pay for it?

*sigh* I shall be clearer now. The Bible says if you don't work, you don't eat. This DOES NOT mean that they starve and die. This means it's SUPPOSED to be the Church's job to help 'em out, and not the beauracracy. I intend to help out the poor through my Boy Scout Troop, to which I was elected Senior Patrol Leader on my 3 years of worthwile executive experience (more than Obama!). And, it's more of a proverb than anything.

Both can help out the poor equally well. Honestly, it does not cost that much to keep the poor and hungry from starving.

Yeah, well, you shouldn't have to pay for it if you don't want the government deciding where the help goes. That's why donating to charity is important.

Most people on welfare: Single Mothers, Unskilled Workers that have been recently laid off ECT.

My Goodness Gracious, do any of you actually know how wellfare is run? The government only supports those that are actively seeking employment! And you pay into it because you never know, you may need a little bounce off the ropes yourself at some point.

Wow, sounds nice, but it doesn't really work that well, does it?


EDIT: WAY! I meant WAY that well!