Old topic...new discussion.

[Cassius335 offline]

Hey guys! This is a very good point but it is the fault of Cartoon Network.
I was talking with the director, Jerome Mouscadet, the other day and he was saying that only the first few and last episodes of this season could be "episodic" and he found this very frustrating. I hope the end of this season will make up for your frustration.

*faint hopefully* Did you happen to bring this forum up in converstation?

[Little Vili offline]

The main point of her post was that each and every part of an episode connects to each other, it can be a lot or not much, but they all do interconnect.

Yes, but remember frontier? Remember how at the end Yumi was really ticked at Ulrich, and the next episode they act like nothing happened. IMO, that’s stupid. Its almost as if it had no significance at all. Sure, plot wise they all somehow connect, that’s obvious. I just wish it was a little more direct.

Take full metal alchemist for example. In one episode, Al was mad at Ed (because Al though he wasn’t originally human, because of what Barry kept telling him). He was mad until the end of that episode, and most of the next one. He didn’t just forget about it, and act like nothing happened.

Now, I also know why this is done. From the transition from each episode to the next, there is an interval of about a few days or so (like when Jeremy said "this is XANA's third attack this week" and too us, we see one every day). Which also brings upon the idea, why not just have it go day by day. If the creators really want to drag it out as long as Inuyasha (no offence to Inu fans), then this would be the way to go, and it would be of a more direct way of doing things.

[MY85 offline]

Take full metal alchemist for example. In one episode, Al was mad at Ed (because Al though he wasn’t originally human, because of what Barry kept telling him). He was mad until the end of that episode, and most of the next one. He didn’t just forget about it, and act like nothing happened.

In CL's case, you also see Ulrich getting mad about why can't they finish with Lyoko so they can move on with their lives. Ulrich drags stress with himself and even more, since William's appearance on Kadic. I don't know how Ulrich deals exactly with life itself, but it's not the same ways as how Odd deals with his own life. Odd might even think about Lyoko as a videogame, but when you play a videogame, you get serious about winning it, and if you lose, then it's game over.

Now, I also know why this is done. From the transition from each episode to the next, there is an interval of about a few days or so (like when Jeremy said "this is XANA's third attack this week" and too us, we see one every day). Which also brings upon the idea, why not just have it go day by day.

It would be expensive, though. And day by day attacks, some of them can even be irrelevant or easier to solve. I think CL's good the way it's going, but a little bit of love lines wouldn't hurt, given our fandom towards CL couples, triangles, and even squares (xD).

[Little Vili offline]

not a day by day attack. More or less, have periods of peace, longer battles when they do happen. Day by day as in the episodes go day by day, not skipping like 5 or more. The way that Jeremy used to talk was that XANA would only attack like once a week or so. Well, what the h*** happened between the attacks? Im not saying show everything, but at least give us something to do with the plot.

You say the episodes are linked. What about the random attacks such as the Zombie one, or 75% of the time XANA controlled someone. And other examples I cant quite think of with out going to check. I know with FMA, Im sure they don’t show every day that goes by, but the way they do it, it sure feels like it. Sometimes there will be 3 episodes all on the same day. Why cant CL do that? Basically, the random (plotless) attacks need to end (or lessen a great deal), and the interval needs to shorten as well.

I know its not always fun to do everything the traditional way, but there is such a thing as thinking way too far outside the box.

[Mewberries151]

While I'm all for plot, and desperately wish CL made each episode more interlocking, I am here for the characters. I am into character-driven shows, and let's face it - what would CL be without interesting characters? It may not be the main draw for everyone, but intriguing, engaging characters keep viewers coming back. If you care about the characters and their outcomes on the show, it is easier to be drawn in by the show, and thus make the not-so-shining moments in the show easier to gloss over. Whether there is an ongoing plot is secondary to me as long as the characters remain themselves.

Ditto that. I feel very much the same way. I love this show's characters, and that they, themselves, stay consistent through each episode (quite literally too ^^; ).

But basically what Im saying is, why not have an occasional battle that takes more than one episode (great for building suspence), or something to that effect. Some things need to drag out some times just so it can evenly set in. However, I suppose what Im mostly mad about is, say something happens in one eopisode (like when Aelita kissed Jeremy), they act like nothing happened in the next episode, and that just ticks me off. Its like the "side" events (aka romance, and ext) almost doesnt exist anymore. Very rarely is that kept in any form of consistancy (please correct me if Im wrong).

Yes, but remember frontier? Remember how at the end Yumi was really ticked at Ulrich, and the next episode they act like nothing happened. IMO, that’s stupid. Its almost as if it had no significance at all. Sure, plot wise they all somehow connect, that’s obvious. I just wish it was a little more direct.

Take full metal alchemist for example. In one episode, Al was mad at Ed (because Al though he wasn’t originally human, because of what Barry kept telling him). He was mad until the end of that episode, and most of the next one. He didn’t just forget about it, and act like nothing happened.

Now, I also know why this is done. From the transition from each episode to the next, there is an interval of about a few days or so (like when Jeremy said "this is XANA's third attack this week" and too us, we see one every day). Which also brings upon the idea, why not just have it go day by day. If the creators really want to drag it out as long as Inuyasha (no offence to Inu fans), then this would be the way to go, and it would be of a more direct way of doing things.

Okay, as for the plot inconsistencies in "Frontier" and "XANA's Kiss", they're decently explainable. Something gives me the feeling that Jeremie would be much to shy to inquire about exactly why Aelita kissed him. The fact that he doesn't pursue it is actually an example of character consistency. "Frontier" didn't necessarily need to have a follow-up as that ending was actually more for humor, I believe, than for marking a serious rift in the Y/U universe. We know Ulrich's going to keep trying to explain what happened to Yumi. We know she'll probably be really peeved at him for at least another 24 hours. But we can also figure that they'll work it out. So far as I can see, a continuation of the ending of "Frontier" into an episode would have more or less followed a plot alot like "Routine", for the most part (Y/U arguing, an apology, etc.). Now I'm not saying I wouldn't have loved to see another Y/U fluff episode. I'm just saying there wasn't an exact need for a plot continuation there, as the whole "hang-up" seemed to be meant for humor and irony.

not a day by day attack. More or less, have periods of peace, longer battles when they do happen. Day by day as in the episodes go day by day, not skipping like 5 or more. The way that Jeremy used to talk was that XANA would only attack like once a week or so. Well, what the h*** happened between the attacks? Im not saying show everything, but at least give us something to do with the plot.

But that's exactly why they show CL in the form it's in. Almost every episode ties into the seasons main plot. And season 2 has incorporated many episodes where XANA doesn't technically attack. "Unchartered Territory", "Missing Link", "Exploration", and "Marabounta" all feature no true XANA attacks. As for what happens on the days where there are no XANA attacks, or even XANA activity, Team Lyoko probably takes a well-deserved breather.

The FMA story arc you just used as an example of a "day-by-day" episode arc, is fine, but even FMA doesn't go day by day 100% of the time. I've yet to see any one show go entirely day-by-day throughout its series, because, let's face it: Somedays nothing interesting is going to happen...at all. CL's just about as consistent as FMA for that reason, IMO.

You say the episodes are linked. What about the random attacks such as the Zombie one, or 75% of the time XANA controlled someone. And other examples I cant quite think of with out going to check. I know with FMA, Im sure they don’t show every day that goes by, but the way they do it, it sure feels like it. Sometimes there will be 3 episodes all on the same day. Why cant CL do that? Basically, the random (plotless) attacks need to end (or lessen a great deal), and the interval needs to shorten as well.

I know its not always fun to do everything the traditional way, but there is such a thing as thinking way too far outside the box.

Episodes where XANA controlled someone: "A Great Day" (serious plot development; XANA can now possess people), "Mister Puck" (serious plot development; the Discovery of Hopper's journal), "St. Valentines Day" (character development), "Final Mix" (character development; Aelita), "The Chips Are Down" (character development; Ulrich and Yumi), "Common Interest" (mild plot development; new info is learned about XANA), "Attack of the Zombies" (character development; William and Sissi), "Ultimatum" (character development; Sissi and Ulrich); "Tip Top Shape (serious plot development; Jeremie can activate towers and XANA can take them over).

A third of the episodes in which XANA possesses someone contain serious plot developments in either the Franz Hopper plot, or in the plot covering XANA's steadily growing power. Mild to moderate character development, which can often be as important as any plot, are present in nearly all the episodes as well. They may be "random attacks" (all the episodes contain random attacks to that extent), but the plot points covered in them are very important to Code Lyoko's story as a whole.

As for FMA feeling that we're seeing "every day", that feeling can easily come with CL too. "New Order" through "Mister Puck" certainly felt like they happened one after the other more or less. FMA and CL are not that different in the way they present the adventures of their characters.

As for doing things the traditional way, CL does do that, but in what seems like an unconventional way. Few cartoons regularly stretch a single day's events over the span of several episodes, and it doesn't necessarily make them better. I disagree entirely that Code Lyoko thinks "too far" out of the box, as a majority of cartoons follow the "snapshots" formula of story-telling. And even so, "thinking too far out of the box" isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself. What this really comes down to is opinion, unfortunately. I think Code Lyoko is fine the way it is, and that it does a wonderful job in its story-telling and character development. I wouldn't say "no" to "TBC-type" episodes, but Code Lyoko seems to do just fine without them all the time, in terms of telling a story, IMO.

[Little Vili offline]

As I once said, I cant debate my way out of a paper bag. So Im not even going to bother trying to go against all of what you just said.

[MY85 offline]

We know Ulrich's going to keep trying to explain what happened to Yumi. We know she'll probably be really peeved at him for at least another 24 hours. But we can also figure that they'll work it out.

Indeed. And all the process of making a relationship isn't done easily, Ulrich doesn't want a one-night stand with Yumi, he's trying to find the way to become more than just friends with Yumi. But well, there's Xana and dealing with saving lifes is at the moment more important than just love or your own interests. There's responsibilities Ulrich and Yumi have in order to save Aelita and their lives from XANA. As for CL, I'm expecting to see something about why exactly XANA wants Aelita's memory or to see Waldo Schaffer (a thread I have just made aobut him, though he seems like a Privat Investigator or someone very close to Franz Hopper)... but yeah, I'd like to see more romance stuff as well. Even if it's on the series finale.

The FMA story arc you just used as an example of a "day-by-day" episode arc, is fine, but even FMA doesn't go day by day 100% of the time. I've yet to see any one show go entirely day-by-day throughout its series, because, let's face it: Somedays nothing interesting is going to happen...at all. CL's just about as consistent as FMA for that reason, IMO.

I bet at least you guys have heard of 24 (starring Kiefer Sutherland as Jack Bauer). 24 episodes, each representing 1 hour, and many things happen in 1 hour. Sadly, the people who are like Vili's kind would ignore it.

There's still many doubts to clear about XANA, even more since Season 2... but hey, we all enjoy it.

[animenologist offline]

I kinda like Code: Lyoko as a non-serial series, though probably because I usually prefer stories in a non-serial manner than a serial one. In a serial series, the episodes go in step, one by one in a specific order. It makes for great arcs and good long stories, but I sometimes have the feeling that in some cases, the episodes lose there effect standing alone. That once you reach that pay-off, that climax, all episodes that build up to it, lose a good bit of their power, since all of it went into building that final climax.

Code Lyoko seems a lot like my other favorite series, Futurama, in terms of story structure. With each episode, time goes by, as shown by the calendars. Sometimes past events come back, sometimes they don't. But when something is brought back from the past, it adds something nice to the episode, if not, atleast we can enjoy the episode based on its own merit, and not because it was something to build up on something else. And I feel its current structure emulates actual life better. Not every event needs to be connected, not every event needs to be important. What may seem absolutely important at the here and now, may become forethought within a few days time. So I don't mind if the next episode doesn't droop on the events of the past. Aslong as they don't stand still forever, I'm happy with the way the story develops. Jeremie and Aelita's relationship and Sissi's character underwent a few interesting changes, so atleast its not stationary.

[Little Vili offline]

Sadly, the people who are like Vili's kind would ignore it.

What do you mean "Vili's kind". First off, I dont even like that show.

[MY85 offline]

Sadly, the people who are like Vili's kind would ignore it.

What do you mean "Vili's kind". First off, I dont even like that show.

First off, your kind IGNORES anything that isn't related to animated stuff.

[kiwi offline]

Whoa whoa, slow down! *phew*

Okay, for plot consistency, yes, most shows do have an on-going story in that each episode follows along to. Season 1 had that. It was Jeremie's quest for the Materialization code. "TeddyGozilla" (where it's first mentioned), "Cruel Dilemma", "Image Problem", "Just In Time", "Code:Earth" and "False Start" all expand on that storyline, and each episode mentioned Aelita's materialization project at least once. That's a continuing storyline.

As for season 2, "New Order", "Unchartered Territory", "Exploration", "A Great Day", and "Mister Puck" all contained a steady plot-continuity that built up to the discovery (and consequential destruction) of Franz Hopper's diary. "St. Valentines' Day" broke that run, but "Marabounta" picked it up for a moment (Jeremie discovered the idea for the Marabounta in a portion of Franz Hopper's journal). Later on, "Vertigo" held the revelation that Aelita may finally be cured of her virus, and "Cold War" touched briefly on the idea that XANA was definitely getting stronger (being able to now send the Mantas where he pleases), and "Deja Vu" and "Franz Hopper" both revolved around the Franz Hopper storyline ("Deja Vu" in particular).

It's possible the last few episodes will also further continue the storyline. But the point is there is alot of consistency between the episodes in both seasons. It's just not spoon-fed to us in each and every episode. And there's alot of sub-plots that are continually touched or expanded on in nearly every episode. Season 2 has the W/Y/U sub-plot, along with a possible O/A development (depending on how one looks at it), and an interesting development of Sissi's character. Season 1 usually touched briefly on either some development in the Y/U or J/A romances, or on character development.

Anyway, I don't disagree that having more continuity might be interesting. I'm just saying that there is already a decent amount of continuity between the episodes of both seasons. Code Lyoko bases itself off of "snapshots" in the lives of Team Lyoko. The continuity is still there though, just like there would be continuity between a collection of home videos set during a certain year.

wow. well said. you got there before i did.

[kiwi offline]

In CL's case, you also see Ulrich getting mad about why can't they finish with Lyoko so they can move on with their lives. Ulrich drags stress with himself and even more, since William's appearance on Kadic. I don't know how Ulrich deals exactly with life itself, but it's not the same ways as how Odd deals with his own life. Odd might even think about Lyoko as a videogame, but when you play a videogame, you get serious about winning it, and if you lose, then it's game over.

kiwi's answer:
ulrich is just the kind of guy who sees the glass as half empty. Rather than half full, like Odd does. also, Odd likes battling monsters, which makeshim a great warrior and a fun person, but he also doesn't grasp the full implication of how important it is to save the world. Ulrich is stressed because he feels what a heavy responsibility it is and he wishes the world were a safer place. that's why they're compatible, and best buddies.

[Mewberries151]

wow. well said. you got there before i did.

^.^ Thanks very much!

[DL offline]

I mean when you do something for a long time and it suddenly dissapears you will feel a small hole like something is missing, even if that thing or person had a negative influence, and you will seek to replace it. This is the kind of thing I can see Ulrich doing. When they finally beat XANA I will bet that he wont be very happy, he will be happy but not as happy as Jeremy for example. Usually in people who see the world in the way Ulrich does, in which you believe that the weight of the world is on your shoulders, having that weight taken away or even lessened will feel weird and uncomfortable. But no one will realize this, except maybe Yumi(likely) or a pyschiatrist if he ever sees one(highly unlikely considering he seems like he would never see one). But no one can be sure except kiwi

[SamBlob offline]

"And who needs Lyoko now that Aelita's here with us?" - Odd, in False Start

[MY85 offline]

"And who needs Lyoko now that Aelita's here with us?" - Odd, in False Start

And that was reply to...?

Btw, that quote reminded me of LF back at July or August... let's give some twist to the quote:

And who needs tv.com now that the VA's are here? Having the VA's at LF had its consequences...

[SamBlob offline]

"And who needs Lyoko now that Aelita's here with us?" - Odd, in False Start

And that was reply to...?

The BS about Odd missing Lyoko if it were to be shut down.

[animenologist offline]

He might. You never know how much you miss something until its gone. Odd seems to usually have a lot of fun on his trips to Lyoko, and its an outlet that gives him an excuse to not study. Whether Odd will actually miss Lyoko once its shut down, who really knows, but its a possibility.

[MY85 offline]

He might. You never know how much you miss something until its gone. Odd seems to usually have a lot of fun on his trips to Lyoko, and its an outlet that gives him an excuse to not study. Whether Odd will actually miss Lyoko once its shut down, who really knows, but its a possibility.

That's a given. Sure once they finish with XANA and Lyoko for all, I can picture the gang in a reunion and talking about the good old times...

[Cassius335 offline]

Presumeably they'd find people to replace them. Though who replaces Aelita...

[kiwi offline]

Presumeably they'd find people to replace them. Though who replaces Aelita...

Once they graduate from high school they might consider taking a year or two off from school to keep the world safe. I mean that's a job in itself!
Re: XANA being shut down, I think you guys are right, he'd probably miss fighting the monsters,( tho' remember he does practise martial arts in real life.) Also he'd have very little excuse to avoid admitting his true feelings for Yumi, which would put him in an uncomfortable position... but perhaps he will have matured enough by then (we can only hope!) to not have a problem with that.