Let's talk tech (Now with Glossary)!

[YDV offline]

Ah.. that sounds so much better. Short, sweet, and to the point. Well, mostly.

Did you like my ideas on what the keys could be at all...?

(Oh yeah, this thread's given me a... fanfic? idea. Based on how many pages we have and when one day I thought "Hey, maybe Project Carthage was a bunch of sci-fi geeks who grew up to.." *grins mischieviously*)

Perhaps I'll post it.. eventually. (If I want to write anything I have to constantly send it to myself because I can't save anything on my mom's computer-- she'd notice.)

[TB3]

Yes I do like your ideas.

Aelita would thus have the following keys;

TKE (Tower Kinesthesia)
Computer Proficency (this nicely explains how she went from complete ignorance to semi-genius, and Franz wouldn't let her into Lyoko without some knowledge of how to use her powers)
Unlock Part 1.

Hopper would have the following (possibly)

Coding Manipulation (power over programs rather than terrain)
Programmer Access (Master user)
Unlock Part 2.

Please replace Hopper's keys with something cooler - but basically both he and Aelita are very powerful, and when together they gain from the other full control over their abilities and those of the other's.

Gotta love being God in your own Creation. Lots of religious imagery here - God the Father, God the Son, Adam and Eve in Eden etc.

Also gotta love a good brainstorming session - case in hand.

NEXT!

[animenologist offline]

Yeah, this definately makes a lot of sense. The pieces are starting to fit together. And all this talk of the separate keys to Lyoko kinda gives me a few thoughts on the way XANA thinks. After the first virtualization, after stealig Hopper's keys and an attempt at stealing Aelita's (which he failed at, walking away with her missing fragment instead), XANA had Lyoko's destructive powers, but found Aelita's to be unnecessary. Thus the reason why throughout Season 1, he had little to no care for Aelita's life. In Just in Time, he willingly went on the offensive, knowing that stopping the attack means Aelita's deletion, then there are the multiple times they just kept shooting at her, like Zero Gravity Zone, and what not.

Sometime between False Start and New Order, XANA probably started to realize his own mortality. The kids are continually getting closer to shutting him down, and XANA probably realized that he can't remain in the supercomputer if he wishes to contnue his goals.

I would like to say that if your keys to Lyoko are accurate, that XANA's keys he stole from Hopper allow him to activate towers, then it brings to question why he could deactvate towers in Cold War, Franz Hopper, and Revelation. That can be answered that all that copying probably gave XANA bits of Aelita's abilities, though he needed Aelita's complete memories to complete the key, either from the missing memory fragment, or from the bits and pieces XANA may have copied from Aelita with all those Scyphozoa drainings.

When Aelita complete memory was drained, I'm still going with the theory that it was due to the draining that caused her to 'die', not the shutting down of Carthage. After she was drained, she entered the state a few seconds before Carthage went black and the way towers were activated. Again I'm going with either YDV's view with the draining, that the damaged avatar and vDNA just could no longer sustain her, or my theory that the draining damaged her conciousness file. Whatever happened, Hopper probably did a transfer to Aelita similar to the transfer Aelita did to Yumi. But since Aelita's damage was much more extensive, Hopper probably gave up more to repair her, possibly placing Hopper in a very bad state, either dead or brain dead. Thus why Aelita said "My father sacrificed himself for me..." My guess is that he either made Carthage (and by extension Lyoko) automated or that he now has become a brainless caretaker, thus why Jeremie said Hopper was bringing Lyoko back to life.

But other than that, I find myself in agreement with what TB3 and YDV has stated before me. Our theories are drawing to a close, atleast until next season.

[Stonecreek]

Every go often, one of these summary posts pop up in this thread that make me glad I'm reading it. Science was never my strong suit, so thatnks for laying it out in plain English. MAkes me feel like not such a lame-brain.

[TB3]

Nice points on Aelita's death and Hopper's ressurection of her Animenologist, and withyour points on how XANA got his tower-activation powers you might just have nailed what XANA is on the head.

--------------

XANA was initially a much-more advanced version of the Marabounta, based on Hopper's multi-agent system and developed to destory Carthage.

At some point XANA went the way of Skynet and pushed beyond AI to Self-Awareness and when June 6th 1994 rolled around made a pass at removing the ones who posed a threat to his existance - the Hoppers.

By trapping Franz and copying his data XANA gained the ability to control towers. Though he attacked Aelita he failed and walked away with a chunk of her memory.

Without both keys to Lyoko, XANA did not have omnipotence - but with Franz's tower control ability coupled to his superior machine intellect he was able to establish himself as Regent, with Lyoko as his fiefdom.

--------------

Right, who's gonna bowl ('pitch' to Americans) the next ball? We're building up a head of steam here.

[animenologist offline]

Unless someone has another question, thought, or idea, I'm tapped out right now on what to think about. I think we've reached a concensus on most of details, so nless anyone has anything to add or debate, I believe its time to finish up.

I will say this though, I believe Jeremie was wrong in A Great Day, when he thought XANA's power growth was exponential. I'm thinking that his growth was logarithmic. If the notes about Franz Hopper's diary are accurately described and contain all the principles relating to Lyoko, than the neural accelerator is probably the basis for increasing XANA's power with every return trip. Like how the helmet from Temptation uses the TAP to accelerate a human's nervous system, it could be possible to apply it to a computer's processors. And in Temptation, the neural accelerator works at a logaritmic scale, each jump back over time weakens its effectiveness. Its odd that after nearly 3000 jumps, XANA is still only able to possess one human being aswell as it being odd that 2600 jumps only allow it some very simplistic attacks.

[Osiris offline]

wow you guys are good i just wish i was ablr to contribute to this ...ah well i just want to say great job to all you in the tech thread!

[TB3]

With regard to animenologist - ddn't Jeremie say in 'A Great Day' that after all the return trips that have occured (all 3000 of them), the computer had developed enough power to recognise a new qubit.

I.e. if the computer was encoded in 0-9, it just developed the ability to recognise '10' (I know that sounds crazy but still, it is a number-crunching learning supercomputer) - XANA probably knew this was going to happen and seized the RTTP out of impatience.

Once he'd gone back enough times, he used his power in Lyoko to recode all the programming with the new value, thus condensing all the programming and freeing up a sh*t-load of processing power - enough to run his new complex human-posession program. Thus the computer goes through an exponential increase of power (Jeremie did say it doubled and when you think of coding it makes sense. If the computer wanted to encode '25' it would have '5+5+5+5+5+5' Now it could have '10+10+5' - just a thought).

Basically, it's not XANA who gets more powerful, it' the computer. But because XANA controls the computer it is he who appears to have the power (like Bush holding the nuclear-launch codes).

RTTPs make XANA more intelligent in that he learns from his mistakes and gathers data on reality and his enemies. This is best shown by the difference in his impersonations of Jeremie between 'Ghost Channel' and 'XANA's Kiss'.

The 'Temptation' helmet works by a method similar to the computer - by number-crunching the data in Jeremie's mind and coupling that with accelerated brain impulse it can increase his intelligence,

----------------

How does this sound? Please criticise or rethink it.

[DL offline]

That is great man, seriously I have to agree. The meathod you described makes perfect sence. I'm gonna see if I can it a step further though.

When Jeremy made the helmet I have a feeling that that was not what Hopper was talking about. Perhaps Hopper was refering to the fact that a day could be redone an infinate number of times. In doing this you can gain massive amounts of knowledge in relativly small amounts of time. It would have the same psycological affects as the helmet and it would basically work the same way except instead of increasing the knowledge of a person it would allow a person to gain the knowledge themselves. Jeremy probably just misinterprited the entry or took it a step farther.

[YDV offline]

I actually did some research on quantum computing. It's not encoded in 0-9, but more like, instead of

0100111001010101010010

you have

0 01 0
00101
1 1 0

i.e., still binary digits, but with the ability for numbers to occur simultaneously. Supposedly the only way for this to occur is to base them on molecules and quantum mechanics, etc.

Anywho, the basic unit of quantum computers is the qubit, rather than the bit, like in regular computing. This is from memory, but I -think- the numbers occurring simultaneously was called the qubit.

EDIT: Okay, here are some links from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qubit

Dunno if that helps.. I can kind of digest the quantum computers one, but the one about the qubit boils down to gobbledigook to me.

Anyway... my theory was that Mrs. Hopper was actually the computer proficient one in the family-- Franz was a physics teacher, remember? I'll bet she helped out, rather than actually creating Lyoko (considering how it was kinda disproven in "Revelation."

[TB3]

I like the idea of Mrs. Hopper being the programmer. It might also explain how it took Franz 7 years of solo work to construct Lyoko etc, and explain the various flaws in the coding for Lyoko and the Multi-Agent-System (basis of XANA and Marabounta) which have caused him, his daughter and everyone else so much hassle.

As for the Qubit encoding it's quite simple (if you can get your head around it.

In conventional binary 0 and 1 are fixed values.

In 'Quantary' you have 0 and 1 and then a swarm of other valueswhich are neither zero nor one, and yet both at the same time.

The trick is (as I think it says on that Wikipedia article), is giving these various 'neither and both' states arbitary values that can be written easily and which the computer understands.

Thus when the computer reads 024912 it actually converts into about an entire line of coding - thus is the power of Quantum in condensing the 'mass' of a program without loosing the data and consequently freeing up a lot of memory space and processing power.

This is where the 0-9 thing comes in - you assign 0 and 1 their conventional values, and then eight other quibitsare assigned the remaining digits (i.e 2= 0 and 1 together, 3 = neither).

It gets complex and I'm not sure if this 0-9 scale works in reality - but this is 'The Pseudo-Science of Ile Seguin' and when we see numbers flying between towers they seem to be of all values.

I'm still working out how XANA was able to get the computer to recognise an eleventh value such as '10' once it had the capacity, without mistaking it as a 1 and a 0 - perhaps he's started to assign the values to letters or negative numbers?

Your thoughts people.

Oh and PS - YDV is writing an excellent little story about us Techies. I've seen Chapter 1 and you're in for a treat.

[animenologist offline]

Well XANA can always come up with a coding algorithm in order to reduce the number of qubits it takes to represent an entire line of code.

Take Huffman's Binary Coding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffman_coding

The algorithm is based off of creating a pre-fix free coding based on relative frequency of how often certain characters are used. Lets say I have a message that has eight letters in it. If I were to use normal binary coding, I would assign each letter 3 bits in order to represent them. But using Huffman's and given the relative frequency of that each character appears, the more frequent characters use fewer bits and the less frequent characters use more bits. So it takes fewer bits to represent the necessary bits that show up more often.

Take this as an example. A - 5, B - 8, C - 1, D - 10. These are the characters used, and their relative frequency. Using normal coding, each letter takes requires 2 bits to represent. After using Huffman's, I came up with this coding:

D - 1
B - 01
A - 000
C - 001

As you can see, none of the codes are a prefix of another, so if you read it from right to left and not miss a letter and translate as you go, it will translate like normal. If you calculate how many bits it takes to represent a message using the normal binary coding, it takes 24 * 2 = 48 bits. Using Huffman's it takes 10 * 1 + 8 * 2 + 3 * 5 + 3 * 1 = 44 bits. So there is a decrease. Though you'd need larger numbers and bigger difference to make a more profound difference, but you get the idea.

But anyways, with some coding algorithms, he can increase his memory space by a bit. But thats enough of that diversion.

As for adding an extra qubit, why couldn't he add a different character, go hexadecimal instead of normal decimal. How he would go about doing that I'm not so sure about, but its an idea.
-----------------------------------
EDIT:

As for what Jeremie stated in "A Great Day", his exact words were as follows.

"The supercalculateor is a quantum computer that uses the properties of qubits. Everytime you add a qubit, its powers theoretically doubles."

So if you believe that qubit is added every RTTP, then reality shows that the growth is not doubled after every qubit is added, again pointing to a possible logarithmic progression. If you believe that the quibit is added after every so few many return trips, then it fits with what TB3 and YDV has been stating before.

[TB3]

Nicely said Animenologist.

(laughs)

How did we get to this point huh? I mean we started out exactly a month ago tommorrow, back when we still believed in anti-viruses and XANA OSs (wink).
And now look at us - over 500 posts in (this might be the first CL thread to get locked for passing 1000 posts!), a lot of thinking later and now a lot more knowlegable as to how it all works - God I love this thread!

To quote Paradise Lost - "We now debate; who can advise, may speak."

We've had so many contributions to this thread, so much debate, occasional anger, a few laughs, and so much agreement and refinement and consideration of ideas from all quarters.

I don't want this to end!

[animenologist offline]

Yeah its been quite a fun journey thus far. And as long as there is any doubt or any extra thought concerning the details, until the day Code Lyoko is cancelled, it will continue. We have 45 new episodes coming next year, with the entire Code Lyoko universe about to be turned upside down, now that XANA's free. We're not through yet. Again we welcome anyone who has an idea, a thought, or a question to contribute.

And I can't wait for YDV's short story. Looking forward to reading it.

[Cassius335 offline]

I highly doubt XANA is going to wait until Season 4 before attacking again!

[*Star* Gazer offline]

I highly doubt XANA is going to wait until Season 4 before attacking again!

That's the 14th post that's right!

[animenologist offline]

i just wanted to place in this minor thought. Nothing incredibly ground breaking, but its something small to think about. I believe a lot of us initially thought that Way towers as the sole tranport connected to each other so you enter one Way tower and you exit another. But I thought that was strange, because in Frontier, if everytime you traveled through a Way tower and exited from a Way tower, than why did Aelita need to do all that cross-Lyoko running. My first thought was that it was like a tram, you entered the tram through the loading zone and got off at the unloading zone. Same with the Way towers, you use the way towers to travel to your intended destination, and get off at the exit point, which if TB3's idea is correct, should be the Passage towers. I had to rethink this a bit, because in Code: Earth, Aelita had to run to a Passage tower after she finished getting off the data stream. Than I thought maybe it could work both ways. You get in at a Way Tower, get off at a Passage Tower. You get in at a Passage Tower, get off at a Way Tower. The only exception being you can't go into a sections Way Tower to get to the same sections Passage Tower.

Again, just a minor thought I had.

[YDV offline]

Hmm... that's a nice idea. But I thought that Way and Passage towers were the same thing... (I mean, they called them passage towers in S1, and they haven't even said it in S2... i thoguht they thought it wounded better.)

Oh yeah, and I decided to not be lazy and get an LJ for my fic, entitled "Lyokologists: The Fanfic!"

I think I'll make a new thread for it; this should be reserved for "talking tech" only.

[animenologist offline]

After going through the french scripts for Code: Earth and Frontier, it appears you are correct, YDV. In both cases, they refer to the them as "tour du passage" or turn of passage. When checking codelyoko.net, they only tell of the turn of passage, no turn of Way, which if my theory is correct, would appear somewhere to back me up. Darn Season 1 English translation inconsistencies, but oh well, just have to discard it. Of course, this new bit of information kinda makes TB3's post about the Way Tower being an entry point to the sector and the Passage tower an exit point, for the most part almost void since a Passage Tower and a Way Tower are the same thing.

But if thats the case, than the Way towers are not connected to each other. We know that Way towers are used for transport around Lyoko, but if you enter from a Way tower and exit from a Way tower, then all the trouble in Frontier and Code: Earth should of never happened, since Aelita could of just went in one Way Tower and come into another. Judging by the episodes, than the Way towers just drop you off at some exit tower, and if you want to move to another sector, you have to go around the sector to its Way tower and get in. Again, this is similar to a tram, the Way towers are the loading zone, the tower you get off is the unloading zone. You want to get back on, you have to get out of the unloading tower, run around and get to the loading (Way) tower.

[TB3]

Okay so if I'm right Way and Passage Towers are the same right?

So that would mean Lyoko's data layout looks like this;

CARTHAGE
^
V
l--<>-----WAY TOWER--------->---------TOWERS
^
V
l--<>-----WAY TOWER--------->---------TOWERS
^
V
l--<>-----WAY TOWER--------->---------TOWERS
^
V
l--<>-----WAY TOWER--------->---------TOWERS

Now in this situation, you can go from a Way Tower to other sectors, but not from a normal tower to a Way Tower. This would explain the necessary running.

It still leaves the problem though of why one CAN'T emerge from a Way-Tower, unless one is coming from Carthage (it might be noteworthy that Yumi sounded surprised when she popped out of a way-tower in Exploration after leaving Carthage via the tunnels).

That said, now that we're factoring in the idea of Franz's increasing mental instablitiy it might just be a bug in the coding, but that doesn't make a very satisfying explanation.

[Cassius335 offline]

I highly doubt XANA is going to wait until Season 4 before attacking again!

That's the 14th post that's right!

I'm sure that made sense when I posted it...

[animenologist offline]

Could be a safety feature. Think what would happen if you were going to the Forest sector from a Mountain way tower, and just when you're close to arrival, someone from the Forest sectors way tower decides to jump in. Possible collision ensues, and possible side effects may occurr. Yeah, its kinda lame, but it does fit in with my whole tram analogy. One way for loading and one for unloading.

And activity has really died down a lot. I think its time we finalize, and call it a rest until next season. Unless of course anyone else has any other bright ideas.

[TB3]

Sad to say you might be right - we might just have solved everything unless anyone can aska difficult question or make a suggestion like RIGHT NOW!

As for me, my low activity lately has not been for lack of enthusiasm, but because I'm home from University and now have to live 'normal hours' i.e. no staying up to 4 in the morning to post at the same time as you guys!

Now, do we begin the essay, or do we wait till season 3 which could possibly air in the spring.

Cheers!

[Osiris offline]

you may have answerd this sorry if you have

but how exactly does xana materialise himself because he wasnt huyman and he isnt a virtual being?

[TB3]

We are never told just how XANA virtualised himself or what he appeared as, so that's open to your own personal opinion.

And also it's never said that XANA virtualised himself, just that he got out of the computer - that vortex could have been an advanced data-stream.

Cheers!