Let's talk tech (Now with Glossary)!

[animenologist offline]

Unfortunately, all those elements have been filled in according to the modern periodic table of elements. There are currently 116 known elements, and 93 occurr naturally on Earth and the 94th has been detected to occurr off of Earth. After that, all the elements are manufactured and all of which are radioactive, most of which have a very high rate of decay measured in seconds.

If Exertanium were an element, it would have to be very unique as to not decay at such a high atomic number. Most likely if Exertanium were a creation of human technology, it would be a combination of different elements. One of the high temperature superconductors BSCCO is composed of 5 elements. So if Exertanium were to exist and be created it would most likely be a very unique combination of elements.

EDIT: Although the concept seems interesting, isn't it kinda redundant as well to add a DNA processor, since the the supercomputer is also a quantum computer as well. Although Hopper could have utilized ideas from Adleman, the necessary processing power could have already been contained within its quantum processors. The memory itself could be stored in atomic particles, and if properly harnessed could meet the memory storage needs to store human DNA as well as meet the processing needs to constantly record, update, and compare the DNA of any individual. Add to the fact that the supercomputer continually gains processing power and memory with the jumps back in time which continually adds qubits and you have a computer with the potential for near infinite computing power and memory.

[YDV offline]

Unfortunately, all those elements have been filled in according to the modern periodic table of elements. There are currently 116 known elements, and 93 occurr naturally on Earth and the 94th has been detected to occurr off of Earth. After that, all the elements are manufactured and all of which are radioactive, most of which have a very high rate of decay measured in seconds.

If Exertanium were an element, it would have to be very unique as to not decay at such a high atomic number. Most likely if Exertanium were a creation of human technology, it would be a combination of different elements. One of the high temperature superconductors BSCCO is composed of 5 elements. So if Exertanium were to exist and be created it would most likely be a very unique combination of elements.

EDIT: Although the concept seems interesting, isn't it kinda redundant as well to add a DNA processor, since the the supercomputer is also a quantum computer as well. Although Hopper could have utilized ideas from Adleman, the necessary processing power could have already been contained within its quantum processors. The memory itself could be stored in atomic particles, and if properly harnessed could meet the memory storage needs to store human DNA as well as meet the processing needs to constantly record, update, and compare the DNA of any individual. Add to the fact that the supercomputer continually gains processing power and memory with the jumps back in time which continually adds qubits and you have a computer with the potential for near infinite computing power and memory.

Yes, that would probably be the case with Exertanium (didn't TB3 say it was manufactured by the computer using "normal" supercomputers, grain by grain?)

As regards to your edit-- That's almost exactly what I was thinking.

You know what, I think I have a new idea as for how the computer could store DNA.

As animenologist said, with the computer's Quantum and Cell processors, DNA processing would not be necessary to store vast amounts of data. However, as TB3 said, just a tiny amount of DNA could amount to staggering and almost unconcievable amounts of memory.

In order to store just one human DNA strand, even if it's for reference purposes only, it would have to be converted into an extremely small data file. And thus, the scan of the DNA molecule, magnifyed thousands of times and visualized in a 3D computer format, but this also contains genetic information.

In order for this to be possible, Franz himself did not have to be a monumental molecular biologist. He just had to know how to create one simple program..

The DNA molecule is made up of simple parts-- a 5-carbon sugar, a nitrogenous base, and a phosphate group. These nitrogenous bases are the "rungs" of the twisted ladder structure of the Double Helix. Each "rung" is made up of two bases, two nucleotides that have the ability to bond with another type of nucleotide, through the concept known as base pairing. Anyway, the four DNA bases are Cytosine, Guanine, Adenine, and Thymine. This is how DNA is "coded"-- different sectons of the base sequence, for instance CAG ATT GCA, are the "genes" that code for certain traits in an individual.

Anyway... before I get too deep into stuff I learned from Biology class (we actually just got done with DNA xD), the point I'm getting at is this-- the molecular scan can identify different chemicals, perhaps different proteins, and such. If it can identify the different bases, then it can identify the genetic code.

Instead of figuring out what each little code out of the literally trillions that are contained within DNA, Hopper might have designed a program that does it for him.

A type of self-learning, semi-AI program that studies each section of a "default" or "template" human DNA strand, and sort of records it to an ever growing list of specific proteins that code for specific characteristics. Perhaps he created it during the first year or fairly early on, and it had been "learning" across the entire span of seven years. And I'm talking speed here. Perhaps identifying certain proteins and cross-referencing them with online databases at a rate of one trait per 5 milliseconds. It IS a Quantum Computer, after all (although would need an unheard of connection to the internet.. I was hoping that perhaps ZPS could cover this, but I don't know.. perhaps at a slower rate.)

Anyway, if this were possible, who's to say that he couldn't have the entire genome mapped out on the computer at the end if the seven years, based off of his and maybe Aelita's DNA? And then for the slight, slight differences that make humans unique, well, those oculd be identified in the scan and stored in the backup file.

Could this work? It would still require vast amounts of storage space, so your DNA processors might still be plausible, and again how exactly this program obtains its information for cross-referencing is a little iffy right now... (perhaps this program was the prototype of XANA, which he developed to run as his Ever-Present Background Researcher. Or maybe it's part of him. o.O)

I know I'm kinda pushing it.. but I'm stubborn and I don't give up easily xD

[TB3]

Oh I'm very stubborn too!

I wasn't actually suggesting a DNA processor, I just left that idea open in case anyone liked it - what I meant was a program for storing data in virtual DNA strands or vDNA - thus all the molecular, conciousness and genetic data of a human being could be encoded in a vastly smaller file (again since it's just software it also allows all those video files onto a small group of discs - and the encryption as well since DNA is used to make unbreakable codes called 'one-time-pads.'.

Maybe this is one case where we'd have to write up our own theories and post or e-mail them to each other for editing.

Oh, as a though - in the car today I was thinking that the 'Annex Program' might be the 'Lyoko Attributes' portion of the avatar, because this would be where Aelita's keys are located and thus the part that interacts with the tower. It also makes a nice sense of the name - annex being an additional portion to a building - so here an annex as an additional portion of a vDNA strand.


And just on the subject of avatars and WHAT goes into vDNA - the kernel of my reluctance is that I just think using the DNA strand is redundant - to get the DNA strand you need a molecular scan, and that molecular scan would give you a 100% accurate model of the body AS IT IS - not as it could be, which DNA would give you.

(chuckles)

How are we going to work all this out?

PS: Just another thought - whatever the vDNA strand actually is, you still need software to interpret it as virtual particles - a program that can read data and use it to direct multiple agents together into a single structure.

What I'm driving at is that this next stage of the avatar process could have been developed into the Multi-Agent-System that formed the flawed kernel of XANA and the Marabounta.

[Taelia offline]

Wow! The avatar-creating process sure seems cool!

[YDV offline]

But the thing is, how exactly accurate is accurate? I'm just saying having DNA on file would be more cautionary in case something went wrong (for instance, how much of the scanners' accuracy is diminished by having just one speck of dust or perhaps discarded skin cells on the scanner ring?

Meh. You're right. I think we should just move on, for now.

And.. Taelia. No offense, but could you please post a RELEVANT reply? I'm pretty sure that's the exact same thing you said last time...

[TB3]

YDV, perhaps it's right that we move onto the next stage but I'd really love to pin down the avatar process - seriously this thing has been hanging on my mind since Saturday morning! As an example I ended up getting into a discussion/debate with a genetics student called Hannah earlier today! Her opinion was that your unique features could be extrapolated from your DNA, but again nurture takes over - for example if Jim were virtualised via the DNA theory he would not have his beer belly!

Okay - here's the two schools of thought;

1. VDNA DERIVED FROM DNA

2. VDNA DERIVED FROM MOLECULAR DATA

Let's try and write out a precise sequence for each and then see what happens.

CLOSURE! DEAR HOPPER I WANT CLOSURE!

EDIT: As for accuracy the same could apply to DNA scanning, where the odds of contamination carry even greater risks (also the scanners would have to be hyper-accurate anyway to pick up all 3 billion base pairs per genome) - hence the avatar has backups - if Jeremie suspects contamination he can use the data from the last sucessful transfer to reconstruct the body.

[Taelia offline]

Wow!

Pssttt...TB3, check your PM inbox.

[animenologist offline]

I believe I've stated this in a private message with TB3, but I think I should just put it out here for review.

... I believe that the CT scan is meant to ensure that the person's avatar is up-to-date and constantly being recreated to take care of cases like growth and aging, as well as check for anomolies with the person, like the laughing gas or the necklace from St. Valentine's Day. Its also checks to make sure that the person being scanned fits the profile before transfer, but that does not prevent someone else from taking another person's avatar, which I base upon the happenings of Revelation, where an Odd polymorph took Odd's place.

But I would believe the original basis for the avatar is through the person's DNA, probably as part of the original scanning. So in a sense, I agree with YDV that the DNA is used to translate the person from flesh and blood to avatar. I base this opinion on Just in Time. In that case, a single hair formed the basis for the recreation of Aelita's entire avatar and as Jeremie has stated contains "her complete genetic computer code". Of course there are challenges to this thought, one of which took place a while ago, in that the hair may have been just a way to find Aelita's coding that was taken off the computer's table of contents. As for Jeremie's statement, he is not an infallible word, and though carries strong evidence himself, he can be wrong (the whole virus thing). But taking Just in Time at face value, a person's DNA acts as the basis for the person's vDNA.

Basically to put my thoughts together in one piece, for the first virtualization, the person's DNA will form the template for their vDNA, from which, the vDNA can be altered for their battle gear and powers. And should their avatar be erased, can be recreated through another scanning of their DNA, such as the case with Just in Time. For every subsequent scanning and virtualization, the CT scan is just meant to make sure that the host is the right person and in good condition as well as update the avatar based on physical changes like age or any surgery that my have altered their physical anatomy. Since its just a checkup and not actually taking their DNA this time, this can lead to another entity taking their place and entering their avatar, but of which the console would state a data corruption error as well as possible reprecussions during the devirtualization/materialization process.

Basically, the DNA is for back-up as in the case Just in Time, and used to compare the person being scanned, in case someone else tries to be virtualized under a different profile. Atleast, according to my view.

As for the annex programs, annex can also mean connection. As in, the annex programs could be the part of her avatar that connects to the tower. Its the only case where an annex program has ever been mentioned, and I find it odd that the with a damaged annex program, bad consequences happens after she connects to the tower, if her vDNA structure in general was damaged.

[Taelia offline]

Yeah, and some outside factors can affect the DNA.

[TB3]

Animenologist/YDV - can you write up how you see the avatar construction process going and then I'll compare with mine - I think both sides have merits and I'd really like us to fnd some happy middle ground.

Taelia - I like you but please stop posting here to just say WOW! or COOL! - and as for my inbox sorry to sound cruel but most of the fanfic links and magic transformation ideas you send me I read and delete. If you want feedback just say so in each PM. Again sorry if I sound heratless, because I'm not.

Cheers guys!

[Taelia offline]

Thanks for the clear-up. Gomen nasai.

[Pyro-Lord offline]

TB3, where do you learn this stuff?

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

TB3, where do you learn this stuff?

Don't worry. You're not the only one with questions. I've been trying to figure out what they've been saying for a while now. One good thing though - this comes in handy during science class. Sometimes I sound just like Jeremie from reading this forum.

[YDV offline]

Uhh.. I think TB3 learned it the same way everyone else did... school, the internet, and obsessively watching CL!

[TB3]

Uhh.. I think TB3 learned it the same way everyone else did... school, the internet, and obsessively watching CL!

To true - and a whopping load of sci-fi books!

YDV - d'you think you could write up your 'ideal' avatar construction sequence so I can try and find a outcome we're all happy with?

[YDV offline]

Ehh.. maybe later. Because honestly I'm kinda LTT-ed out right now. >.<

I will, though! (Heh, me too.. *pokes collection of Ender books, Ben Jeapes books, and of course .hack*)

[animenologist offline]

I guess I'll be the first to state my theory on virtualization, though its probably going to be the most simplistic as well as the shortest.

When entering the scanner for the first, a DNA sample is scanned, mapped, and recorded. The DNA forms the basis for the person's genetic computer code, which we have dubbed the vDNA. Because of the high processing power of the supercomputer and the quantum capabilities, it should be able to handle the recording, interpretation, and manipulation of the human DNA fairly easily. On top of that, they use the CT scan for aging, body shape, and any physical anomolies. In a normal scan, they are in a default mode, with no weapons or special abilities. By altering the vDNA, they are given extra abilities according to the programmer. Should the vDNA be lost or deleted, a simple DNA sample, like a hair, should be able to reconstruct an almost exact representation of it. But the entire vDNA packet which forms the basis for the avatars will have similar structure to the human's DNA.

For every subsequent scanning and virtualization, their DNA is not necessary to create the avatars, only used as a comparison between the person being scanned and the avatar the person will be transferred to to make sure the scanner has the right person. The normal CT scan will handle such things as age, change in body shape, and any anomalies that may corrupt the transfer. It is from there that any updates to the normal vDNA is made, unless there has been a corruption error, in which case the changes aren't saved. Because the DNA is no longer necessary for avatar construction, theoretically you can take another person and place himself in another person's avatar, similar to what the polymorph did in Revelation. In this case, their conciousness is taken and implanted into the already previously prepared avatar. Any negative consequences associated with this has not been fully distinguished yet.

Now in the case with Aelita and Hopper, if a person being scanned has their particular DNA sequence, the computer is already programmed to automatically include the keys to Lyoko be altered into their vDNA automatically. This would explain according to my theory why Aelita as soon as she was recreated with her hair automatically got back all her special abilities associated with her.

Guess thats all to it. Sorry if its a bit on the simplistic side.

[TL.]

Just have to say this guys. 100 post untill it gets locked. THINK HARD!

[Cassius335 offline]

Animenologist/YDV - can you write up how you see the avatar construction process going and then I'll compare with mine - I think both sides have merits and I'd really like us to fnd some happy middle ground.

Taelia - I like you but please stop posting here to just say WOW! or COOL! - and as for my inbox sorry to sound cruel but most of the fanfic links and magic transformation ideas you send me I read and delete. If you want feedback just say so in each PM. Again sorry if I sound heratless, because I'm not.

Cheers guys!

Magic Transformation... Dare I ask?

[TB3]

Magic Transformation... Dare I ask?

Don't

Right, just a heads up to say I've rested up my mind and come up with a theory which I think combines both fields and also makes sense;

The molecular data of a body is MASSIVE - and rather than trying to extrapolate data from all of that, it makes sense to base the avatar off a single molecule (DNA).

When the person is scanned for the first time DNA is used to create the avatar, and then in subsequent scans molecular data is used to fill in the 'nurture' aspect of a body - tweaking the avatar to match the subject - the molecular data however is far too large to store within the avatar (I realised that if one DNA strand was massive, imagiene the size of a molecular scan of a human where that strand is replicated in EVERY SINGLE CELL!), and so is stored seperate from the avatar in restricted-access memory.

In both cases vDNA is the storage and encryption format.

That's things in breif, but if it passes approval I'll finish the final version and then we can move on from this...'challenging' subject.

[YDV offline]

Hmm.. you know, that actually just might make sense. But I don't know how that would lead to a successful devirtualization/materialization, unless the full molecular scan was brought back into play... but otherwise I guess it could work.

[TB3]

Hmm.. you know, that actually just might make sense. But I don't know how that would lead to a successful devirtualization/materialization, unless the full molecular scan was brought back into play... but otherwise I guess it could work.

It actually makes it easier to devirt - before we were talking about re-splicing and so-on, but in this case all that data is streamed directly from the memory banks to the scanner - it's so large it just makes sense to not meddle with it.

And during the scan only the data from the topmost layers of the body (and the mind) go into the avatar, thus factoring in changes in height, build, speech etc.

[YDV offline]

That would be unwise. Because what if someone being scanned had a transplanted kidney, or something? It's biological data, and if it doesn't get scanned, who knows what could happen when they deVirt?

Probably just the topmost layers go into the actual Avatar (although I do recall Odd complaining about his stomach and feeling sick on the trips to Carthage.. maybe it's a mental thing.) but the rest is stored in the computer.

[TB3]

Probably just the topmost layers go into the actual Avatar (although I do recall Odd complaining about his stomach and feeling sick on the trips to Carthage.. maybe it's a mental thing.) but the rest is stored in the computer.

That's what I said - and the stomach thing...hmm...it might not be mental as Yumi suffered from it in 'A Fine Mess' - could they actually have organs?

Most likely it's just a gliche in Odd's avatar though as they never seem to suffer any internal problems in Lyoko despite the beatings they take, and were the bodies replicated to the letter Odd would have been suffering from hypothermia damage in Cold War.

[YDV offline]

Perhaps. But I think it could be compared to playing a video game where the screen rotates or moves quickly and getting dizzy-- the "sick to his stomach" thing would probably be just a figure of speech. Or not. Who knows?