Who would be most affected if Franz Hopper died?

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

I would have to say Jeremie. One Jeremie would be upset because he would be missing out on all the information Hopper could have told him. Two Aelita would be very very upset and we all know how Jeremie hates to see Aeltia hurt (physically, mentally, and/or spiritually). And last but not least I think Jeremie would blame himself.

After you vote please post your reasons. I understand were alot of people see Aelita being most affected - he was he father! But if you have any other reasons please post them.

[Pyro-Lord offline]

I say Aelita would be most affected if Franz died. I mean, after all he is Aelita's dad. So if he died, just imagine what would happen.

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

I guess. Anyone else have an opinion?

[Activated Tower offline]

Before today, I probably would have said Aelita, and I still think she'd be pretty upset, but now I agree with you about Jeremie, for the same reasons you said.

[Rachiru offline]

It's kind of a tie between Aelita and Jeremie. I'd say Aelita would be a little bit more. So I voted Aelita. No doubt that everyone would be affected, but Aelita the most.

[Lani offline]

Mmm... I'd say Aelita, for obvious reasons. >>; I mean, she was locked away in a world where her human life was eaten for years, her mother's dead, and so imagine the impact it would have on her if he did die, she'd go mad!

And Jeremie too, a little, I guess. But my brain just blacked out on me so I can't think up any good reasons >>;

[DarkestSoul X21 offline]

I say Aelita

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

Mmm... I'd say Aelita, for obvious reasons. >>; I mean, she was locked away in a world where her human life was eaten for years, her mother's dead, and so imagine the impact it would have on her if he did die, she'd go mad!

And Jeremie too, a little, I guess. But my brain just blacked out on me so I can't think up any good reasons >>;

True. But do we really have any proof that her mother DIED? I think something went wrong with XANA. I have a feeling that XANA and her mother are conected. XANA isn't the program - just the virus. So what was the original program? It only showed her mother disappearing not dying.

[Mewberries151]

Mmm... I'd say Aelita, for obvious reasons. >>; I mean, she was locked away in a world where her human life was eaten for years, her mother's dead, and so imagine the impact it would have on her if he did die, she'd go mad!

And Jeremie too, a little, I guess. But my brain just blacked out on me so I can't think up any good reasons >>;

True. But do we really have any proof that her mother DIED? I think something went wrong with XANA. I have a feeling that XANA and her mother are conected. XANA isn't the program - just the virus. So what was the original program? It only showed her mother disappearing not dying.

I think that "disappearance" was the animators subtle way of showing that she died. I mean, it is a kids show after all, so they're not going to show her actually "dying"...at least not painfully, or what not. I think it must have been a very unexpected or sudden death that took her. Other cartoons have used that "disappearance" imagery to portray a person dying, so I wouldn't put it past CL to use a similar motif.

Either way, I'd vote Aelita. It is her father after all. Jeremie respects Franz Hopper and looks up to him, and yes, he would probably blame himself for a death, but Aelita would likely do the same, and feel far more grief because she never really got to grow up knowing her father well.

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

True, true. But Hopper was an influence on all of them. I mean the group turned on Jeremie becuase they thought a XANA clone was Hopper.

[Mewberries151]

True, true. But Hopper was an influence on all of them. I mean the group turned on Jeremie becuase they thought a XANA clone was Hopper.

You mean in "Franz Hopper"? They didn't turn on him. Yumi was upset because she thought she was going to die (and rather painfully, I might ask), but she never once blamed Jeremie for it. She just asked to have some personal time to think things through. Ulrich was upset for Yumi, but he didn't blame Jeremie either. And Aelita certainly didn't turn on him in anyway. Only Odd became angry and blamed Jeremie, but it's in his character to be impulsive like that at times. No one completely turned on Jeremie at all.

[Stephen (x1)]

Yea, Jeremie might be the saddest for the reasons said.

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

Ok let me rephrase then. The group IGNORED Jeremie. Better?

[animenologist offline]

True, true. But Hopper was an influence on all of them. I mean the group turned on Jeremie becuase they thought a XANA clone was Hopper.

You mean in "Franz Hopper"? They didn't turn on him. Yumi was upset because she thought she was going to die (and rather painfully, I might ask), but she never once blamed Jeremie for it. She just asked to have some personal time to think things through. Ulrich was upset for Yumi, but he didn't blame Jeremie either. And Aelita certainly didn't turn on him in anyway. Only Odd became angry and blamed Jeremie, but it's in his character to be impulsive like that at times. No one completely turned on Jeremie at all.

You're actually wrong about Ulrich not blaming Jeremie. At dinner that exact same night, Ulrich and Jeremie had this conversation.

Jeremie: "I'll work it out, I promise I will."
Ulrich: "I think you've done enough damage as it is."
Jeremie: "What do you mean by that? That everything has been my fault right from the start?"
Ulrich: "You're the brains in this outfit, Einstein."

I don't know about you, but I think that sounds like anger to me. Especially if Aelita would chastize Ulrich afterwards. If they didn't blame him, they wouldn't have ignored him or let the Franz Hopper clone make him seem the fool. If they truly thought it wasn't his fault, Aelita wouldn't have been the only one to try and stop him from leaving. They would of stood up for him as a friend, instead of letting him take the blame by himself.

But as for the matter at hand, I say its Aelita. Jeremie may see Franz as a role-model and genius, but he doesn't even know the guy personally. Aelita is the one closest to him and now she has her memories back, knows him on a very close level. Jeremie may feel bad for the loss of a life as well as sorry for Aelita's pain, but Aelita is much closer to him and has more emotional investment (is that the word I want to use?) in him, thus the most to lose should he die.

[Blueyedblonde offline]

Probably Aelita- I mean, it is her dad... Then Jeremie, because of the reasons listed in the first post. The one about Jeremie blamming himself- is so true.

[Mewberries151]

True, true. But Hopper was an influence on all of them. I mean the group turned on Jeremie becuase they thought a XANA clone was Hopper.

You mean in "Franz Hopper"? They didn't turn on him. Yumi was upset because she thought she was going to die (and rather painfully, I might ask), but she never once blamed Jeremie for it. She just asked to have some personal time to think things through. Ulrich was upset for Yumi, but he didn't blame Jeremie either. And Aelita certainly didn't turn on him in anyway. Only Odd became angry and blamed Jeremie, but it's in his character to be impulsive like that at times. No one completely turned on Jeremie at all.

You're actually wrong about Ulrich not blaming Jeremie. At dinner that exact same night, Ulrich and Jeremie had this conversation.

Jeremie: "I'll work it out, I promise I will."
Ulrich: "I think you've done enough damage as it is."
Jeremie: "What do you mean by that? That everything has been my fault right from the start?"
Ulrich: "You're the brains in this outfit, Einstein."

I don't know about you, but I think that sounds like anger to me. Especially if Aelita would chastize Ulrich afterwards. If they didn't blame him, they wouldn't have ignored him or let the Franz Hopper clone make him seem the fool. If they truly thought it wasn't his fault, Aelita wouldn't have been the only one to try and stop him from leaving. They would of stood up for him as a friend, instead of letting him take the blame by himself.

That does sound like anger...but he didn't specifically say "I blame you for this, Jeremie" (whereas Odd had been ranting about mad scientists). Ulrich, I think, was angry that Yumi could die, and was upset that something Jeremie "had done" was the cause of it...but to me it sounded like he wanted to blame him, but was holding it back because at heart he knew Jeremie could never have known. Aelita chastizing him, was because he still was insinuating fault towards Jeremie...which I'll definitely agree that he was doing. He didn't argue the matter further with Aelita, which is why I think he knew at heart that it wasn't Jeremie's fault...he was just very upset that he could lose Yumi.

As for ignoring him...Ulrich did still sit with him at lunch (even if he did become slightly vindictive). Yumi asked for some time alone, which I think was acceptable considering she was the one marked for death. Odd was ignoring him...but Odd shows his anger by doing that, so that can be chalked up to character (he had done that before in "Image Problem").

And as for allowing Franz Hopper make him look like a fool...I don't doubt that they didn't catch the "sneer" in his tone, but they could have taken it in the way a friend generally treats a situation in which they're stuck watching a teacher chastize a student for poor behavior, or a parent scolding a kid. Kids generally tend to clam up...lest they bring the wrath subsequently upon themselves, or make things worse by intruding. They thought Franz Hopper was who he was. They had no reason to think otherwise until things started to go wrong.

[therealphoenix offline]

It's between Aelita or jeremie. I think... Franz Hopper was Aelita's Father (didn't see the next episodes), but then again, jeremie would be heartbroken as well.

[Pyro-Lord offline]

What did Odd do in "Image Problem"?

[Saphire-089 offline]

I think Aelita would be the most affected. Franz Hopper was her father.

[animenologist offline]

That does sound like anger...but he didn't specifically say "I blame you for this, Jeremie" (whereas Odd had been ranting about mad scientists). Ulrich, I think, was angry that Yumi could die, and was upset that something Jeremie "had done" was the cause of it...but to me it sounded like he wanted to blame him, but was holding it back because at heart he knew Jeremie could never have known. Aelita chastizing him, was because he still was insinuating fault towards Jeremie...which I'll definitely agree that he was doing. He didn't argue the matter further with Aelita, which is why I think he knew at heart that it wasn't Jeremie's fault...he was just very upset that he could lose Yumi.

As for ignoring him...Ulrich did still sit with him at lunch (even if he did become slightly vindictive). Yumi asked for some time alone, which I think was acceptable considering she was the one marked for death. Odd was ignoring him...but Odd shows his anger by doing that, so that can be chalked up to character (he had done that before in "Image Problem").

And as for allowing Franz Hopper make him look like a fool...I don't doubt that they didn't catch the "sneer" in his tone, but they could have taken it in the way a friend generally treats a situation in which they're stuck watching a teacher chastize a student for poor behavior, or a parent scolding a kid. Kids generally tend to clam up...lest they bring the wrath subsequently upon themselves, or make things worse by intruding. They thought Franz Hopper was who he was. They had no reason to think otherwise until things started to go wrong.

Couldn't the same argument have been given to Odd? Nobody said specifically that it was Jeremie's fault. Before you talk about his rantings on Dr. Shrink, if your reasoning follows, he could of been insinuating something else. Really he was implying it, he didn't need to say it explicitly, you can hear it in his voice and manners. He didn't even accept his apology: "You're sorry!?! Well thats not gonna cure Yumi."

If you imply something very obviously, you aren't any less guilty than if you explicitly stated it. If you ever read Othello, the villain Iago tried to get Othello to kill his wife by making him believe his wife was an adulterous. But throughout the entire play, he never explicitly accused her. He just made various implications that point towards the conclusion, but never flat out said it and let Othello come to the conclusion. He wasn't any less guilty of commiting lies as Ulrich is in implicating Jeremie as the main fault for the situation.

If you're saying Odd ignoring him and Ulrich wasn't because Ulrich sat with Jeremie at dinner, Odd was there with Ulrich as well. The whole dinner they were doing nothing but bagging on him. Actions speak louder than words. Ulrich didn't need to say it, it was obvious, the stare, the insults, basically abandoning him and not giving him any slack. Is Ulrich any less guilty just because he didn't say it out loud in clear words for all the world to understand?

When Franz Hopper gave his little insult, all the others eyes were focused on Jeremie with murderous stares, save for Aelita who kept her eye on Hopper. At the same time, they didn't show remorse when he left. When he left, their backs were turned. They only looked back after the door closed. And once he was gone and Franz-clone gave the go ahead to start the mission, Yumi and Odd gave a smile. Thats not how a friend acts when a friend gets chastized if they felt he didn't deserve it. Again, they didn't have to say it, there actions stated otherwise.

[TB3]

Right now I'd say Aelita, but that is dependant on how well her memories have reintergrated - if she has regained them 100% then she has just lost her only parent - couple this to newly resurfaced memories of her mother's death/vanishing and you get a very unhappy girl.

[Mewberries151]

Couldn't the same argument have been given to Odd? Nobody said specifically that it was Jeremie's fault. Before you talk about his rantings on Dr. Shrink, if your reasoning follows, he could of been insinuating something else. Really he was implying it, he didn't need to say it explicitly, you can hear it in his voice and manners. He didn't even accept his apology: "You're sorry!?! Well thats not gonna cure Yumi."

If you imply something very obviously, you aren't any less guilty than if you explicitly stated it. If you ever read Othello, the villain Iago tried to get Othello to kill his wife by making him believe his wife was an adulterous. But throughout the entire play, he never explicitly accused her. He just made various implications that point towards the conclusion, but never flat out said it and let Othello come to the conclusion. He wasn't any less guilty of commiting lies as Ulrich is in implicating Jeremie as the main fault for the situation.

If you're saying Odd ignoring him and Ulrich wasn't because Ulrich sat with Jeremie at dinner, Odd was there with Ulrich as well. The whole dinner they were doing nothing but bagging on him. Actions speak louder than words. Ulrich didn't need to say it, it was obvious, the stare, the insults, basically abandoning him and not giving him any slack. Is Ulrich any less guilty just because he didn't say it out loud in clear words for all the world to understand?

When Franz Hopper gave his little insult, all the others eyes were focused on Jeremie with murderous stares, save for Aelita who kept her eye on Hopper. At the same time, they didn't show remorse when he left. When he left, their backs were turned. They only looked back after the door closed. And once he was gone and Franz-clone gave the go ahead to start the mission, Yumi and Odd gave a smile. Thats not how a friend acts when a friend gets chastized if they felt he didn't deserve it. Again, they didn't have to say it, there actions stated otherwise.

I'd honestly have to re-watch this episode again to respond effectively. I honestly don't remember seeing any "murderous stares", although admittedly I believe they did not look "happy". I seem to recall Odd giving Yumi a sympathetic smile (which I assumed had to do with her "condition") and Yumi obliging him with an "I'm okay" smile...but perhaps this is just due to a contrast of interpretations. I'll have to check my tapes.

Either way, I'd still hold that because Ulrich did not completely voice his own accusation at Jeremie, he did not feel at heart that Jeremie was at fault. If Ulrich had completely been certain that everything was Jeremie's fault, he likely would have called Aelita on it when she scolded him for insinuating it. It is Yumi who was in danger of dying after all, and if Ulrich had had no doubts at all that everything was Jeremie's fault, he likely would have tried to pick an arguement with Aelita on it, defending his opinion and Yumi's "best interest". But he didn't, likely because he heard the truth that he knew in his heart echoed in Aelita's words.

But again, this may be just interpretation. To be sure, once I re-check my tapes, I'll bring this up again at the "Franz Hopper" episode thread.

To veer this back on-topic though, it seems we both agree that Aelita would be more devastated if Franz Hopper were to be killed. There's a huge difference between someone you admire and wanted to learn more about dying, as opposed to someone you grew up with for a few years of your life and who you once loved and cared about dying.

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

Did anybody else think the team turned on and blamed Jeremie too quickly? Of all the trust, loyalty, and friendship they have in each other, a stranger claiming to be Franz Hopper shows up and they buy his story without a second thought.

I don't think Jeremie would be too deeply affected by Hopper's death. He didn't know him and was not connected in any emotional way. What he needed to know, the journal entries told him. The only one who would really be affected would be Aelita, but how much would really depend on what her memories were. She did kind of hate him for a while.

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

Yikes. This is getting interesting. My main point is Jeremie would be upset because Aelita is upset. Also has anyone ever heard the statement (I don't agree with it persdonally but...) 'You can't miss something you've never had'? Aelita was very very young when she lived with Hopper. Also in Season 1 before she knew about Hopper she had no parents. It would be like going back to Season 1. And I agree that actions speak louder than words when it comes to the group abandoning Jeremie temporarily.

[animenologist offline]

I honestly don't remember seeing any "murderous stares"...

Maybe I should of went with the phrase cold stares or sneers or perhaps dirty look. Sometimes I can't choose the right word.

But yeah, it does seem we agree on the point at hand. Really, probably the only reason I would see Jeremie more devastated by Hopper's death than Aelita is if he was the direct cause of it due to gross negligence, miscalculation, and irresponsible behaviour, mainly to compound the anguish of a lost life and the pain for Aelita with the guilt that it was completely his fault and he was the one who caused the pain and even then, it would be a close one. But assuming he wasn't the cause of death, or atleast the death not entirely his fault, definately Aelita.

EDIT:

Yikes. This is getting interesting. My main point is Jeremie would be upset because Aelita is upset. Also has anyone ever heard the statement (I don't agree with it persdonally but...) 'You can't miss something you've never had'? Aelita was very very young when she lived with Hopper. Also in Season 1 before she knew about Hopper she had no parents. It would be like going back to Season 1. And I agree that actions speak louder than words when it comes to the group abandoning Jeremie temporarily.

The thing is, it isn't something she never had, its something she lost now come back to her. All her memories of her father (assuming that point) are now back with her, all her memories, all the good times, all the feelings of love from birth to her first virtualization is back. To say she was too young is kinda exaggerating it. She was 12 years old (again, assuming from Common Interest) at the time of her first virtualization, the same age as Jeremie at the start of Season 1, and quite the little genius at that.

Take this scenario. Its like a husband who had amnesia and can't remember his loving wife's face, and during his time of recuperation, his wife died. Though at first the knowledge may be unphasing, but as soon as it comes back, it will hit him like a sack of bricks. Aelita is in the same position, except the memories are all back now. Though Jeremie may feel pain for Aelita, I don't think the grief is the same.